singing drummer - need a mic mute footswitch

[jenksdrummer]

I found some on MF's site that are like $80.

 

I imagine there can't possibly be that much to it. So, has anyone here DIY'd a silent switch for microphones?

 

Post up some schematics. I imagine it's quite simple...lol

[agedhorse]

It's not the switch, it's the mechanical aspects and the fact that there's not much volume in producing this kind of product.

 

What mic exactly do you wish to mute. There are 2 possible complications depending on the mic and the fact that it must be quiet.

[Mutha Goose]

it is not as simple as you think. Disconnecting is easy. doing it w/o popping is a whole nother story.

 

i don't know who makes a good cough drop, but I know who makes a {censored}ty one. stay away from the "Panic Button" from RatCo. Technically, it isn't a cough drop, it's an XLR a-b switch, but on paper it would have worked. The problem is there is only about -20db of attentuation (i.e. signal still gets through). I bought one a few years ago. The drummer in a band I was regularly working with had a headset mic that he kept disconnecting when he wanted to get up. I figured this would help. It didn't. I could sell it to ya real cheap

[Scodiddly]

All you generally need is a switch to short pins 2 and 3 of the XLR together. It's not perfect, but it's the way most all of the commercial products work.

[agedhorse]

 

All you generally need is a switch to short pins 2 and 3 of the XLR together. It's not perfect, but it's the way most all of the commercial products work.

 

 

The problem is that with some (most) condenser mics, there's a heck of a pop (or bang) as the mic powers up/down. Anytime you create an impulse (ie. interrupt the flow of phantom power) or start-up a phantom powered device there's a real concern over noise. Sometimes big noise.

[Coaster]

how would shorting 2 and 3 cause an interrupt to phantom power? if i am missing something here please explain?

[monthlymixcd]

The OP didn't say what mic the drummer is using. If it's a headset, switch it off at the beltpack... on a boom stand use a dynamic with a switch. If you have feedback or background noise problems with the mic being on during a song except when the drummer is singing into it... you have placement issues.

[drummer_jay]

 

The OP didn't say what mic the drummer is using. If it's a headset, switch it off at the beltpack... on a boom stand use a dynamic with a switch. If you have feedback or background noise problems with the mic being on during a song except when the drummer is singing into it... you have placement issues.

 

 

Not always a placement issue... Using a Beta58 on a lead singing drummer, even with perfect technique and mic placement... I deal with cymbal bleed all damn day... Maybe because he's using DynaBeat hats and A Custom cymbals.. But theres not much I can do in that situation to help besides dial back any high end as much as possible without sacrificing his voice. I HATE playing the mute button game because nothing looks worse than a guy singing/talking into a muted mic.

 

Not all headsets have a switch on the beltpack... The crown CM311 does... but I'm assuming he's not using that.

 

Using a Dynamic mic with a switch sounds great.. but playing with one stick to switch it on and off is more than a small PITA!!!

 

Silent footswitch would be GREAT....

[Rezrover]

This would be a perfect application for an "In Mouth Microphone" to complement "In Ear Monitors".

[schismpunk]

 

All you generally need is a switch to short pins 2 and 3 of the XLR together. It's not perfect, but it's the way most all of the commercial products work.

 

 

I've had great results with this with dynamic mics. My electrical engineer friend made one with parts from the internet, and it was about $30, including shipping. He offered to put an LED in to show the status of the pedal, but we decided against that, and it's worked out just fine.

 

That said, I have not tried this with a condenser, and I'd be inclined to listen to aged.

[Scodiddly]

 

The problem is that with some (most) condenser mics, there's a heck of a pop (or bang) as the mic powers up/down. Anytime you create an impulse (ie. interrupt the flow of phantom power) or start-up a phantom powered device there's a real concern over noise. Sometimes big noise.

 

 

Andy, take a second to think through what shorting pins 2 and 3 together would do with respect to phantom power. I think you answered reflexively instead of actually reading what I'd suggested.

[drummer_jay]

 

how would shorting 2 and 3 cause an interrupt to phantom power? if i am missing something here please explain?

 

 

I'm confused too??? I guess we all know phantom power is carried on pin 1... I guess you would have to have a switcher that knows how to ONLY short out pin 2 and 3 and to leave pin 1 alone... I'm assuming most basic switches are the equivalent to completely disconnecting or breaking a connection???

 

I could be way to F off base here.

[Scodiddly]

 

I'm confused too??? I guess we all know phantom power is carried on pin 1... I guess you would have to have a switcher that knows how to ONLY short out pin 2 and 3 and to leave pin 1 alone... I'm assuming most basic switches are the equivalent to completely disconnecting or breaking a connection???

 

OK, here's how it works:

 

You build a box with an XLR in and XLR out. You connect each pin through from the input to the output - pin 1 to pin 1, pin 2 to pin 2, pin 3 to pin 3.

 

You then put a switch on the top of the box. You connect the switch between the wires for pins 2 and pins 3. When the switch is on (shorted), the mic is muted. When the switch is off (open), the mic is active. IMPORTANT: You are not breaking the wires between the XLRs on input and output. You are just shorting a couple of them together. The microphone is never "disconnected", it just has its signal lines (pins 2 and 3, but not 1) shorted together.

 

How does this work without interrupting phantom power? Phantom power is carried equally on pins 2 and 3, with pin 1 as the "ground". Since it's being carried equally, and since we're not disconnecting input from output, phantom power is unchanged. However, the mic signal is being carried on pins 2 and 3 as a balanced signal - what is on pin 3 has opposite polarity from pin 2. Shorting them together causes the mic signal to be cancelled out.

 

Some of the commercial designs (do a search for "proco cough drop" and look for a PDF on ProCo's site) add a resistor and capacitor to leak off DC offsets between 2 and 3 and other stuff.

[agedhorse]

First of all, "interrupting" was not the best choice of words. Interrupting the steady state (or quiescent) operating conditions by changing either the load or the source and this would apply to some but not all circuits. For instance, most transformer coupled mic outputs would probably work quite well this way. Most are not transformer coupled however.

 

It really depends on how phantom power is picked off internal to the mic, and a part of the problem is that with some designs the act of shorting the balanced line can cause a change in the impedance translator (output amp) and shorting the output can change how this amp is biased. In some mics, upsetting the internal DC balance can cause unpredictable results like oscillation, latch-up etc. It really depends on the mic.

 

Now one way to deal with this is to use a CD blocking cap & isolation capacitor to short only the AC component of pin 2 & 3 (differential drive) and leave the DC operating parameters unchanged. I suspect that's what's being done with the ProCo product.

 

So, with my bench only a few steps away I tried this with the only condenser mics I can easily get to... a CAD 195 and a Crown PCC. With the 195, it worked pretty good, the pop was not all that bad though definately audible. With the Crown, the pop was pretty loud... loud enough to make a drummer jump even. With a series cap (and I would use a 100k resistor from pin 3 to the cap and the other side of the cap to pin 2, the switch shorting the resistor, effectively placing the cap (470uF is close enough to a short circuit at AC) across pins 2 & 3. This cut the pop down to almost the level of the 195.

 

I did not try this with any other mics, though I suspect there might be some problems with mics like the transformerless C414, and maybe the B-87. I thine each mic would need to be tested because there are enough tricks in mic electronics engineering to create plenty of exceptions to the rule.

 

Perhaps Jim, Karl or Boseengineer could add to this, it seems that between all of us we should be able to come up with some reasonable expectations and scenarios where things would or wouldn't work.

[Keyrick]

I have been using these for years. Never had a pop.

 

http://www.neutrik.com/us/en/audio/210_29951/NC3FXS_detail.aspx

[agedhorse]

Note that there's no problem with a dynamic mic, it's some condensers that there's a problem with. Just to be clear.

[jenksdrummer]

I have been using these for years. Never had a pop. http://www.neutrik.com/us/en/audio/210_29951/NC3FXS_detail.aspx

 

Yeah, that'd work great, except that I'd want it as a footswitch. I can trigger it easily enough off my Hi-Hat foot for on/off.

 

A switch, I'd likely hit the mic stand, and lose a stick in the process until I got real familiar with it.

 

I'll see if I can rig up a switch like what was mentioned earlier - shorting pins 2 and 3 together.

 

I'm using dynamic mics (SM58), so I don't see any issue with phantom power, as I will likely never use a condensor mic for vocals.

 

Thanks everyone!

[Quarterwave]

Have him blasting in the monitors, but muted in FOH....

[dejavu247]

I wouldnt think 'bleed' from cymbals would be a major issue as most dynamic mics have good rejection from the back of the mic. Why doesnt the drummer just swing his mic behind him when hes not singing like most drummers do?