Battle of the (current) budget 12 strings

[kwakatak]

A couple of years ago I was intrigued by the 254ce DLX but that model seems to have been discontinued. Now I see that the 254ce is back without gloss and hardshell case. Personally, I don't need the CE and feel that a case and gloss finish are bigger selling points than the "bells and whistles" of a cutaway and pickup. It's caused me to look elsewhere and these 2 other models came up. I haven't included any other models or brands because these are all rosewood and "somewhat" wood.

[daddymack]

I picked the Guild because I've actually tried it.

Never been a Taylor fan, most I find are too bright and lacking 'subtlety'...and the Yamaha I have never even seen!

[DeepEnd]

Guild--at least the USA models--has been the gold standard for 12-strings for years. I'm also intrigued by the Breedlove Solo 12 string. https://www.elderly.com/products/breedlove-solo-concert-12-string-ce-red-cedar-ovangkol-acoustic-electric-guitar The ovangkol back and sides have similar properties to rosewood but they're laminated like the back and sides on the Taylor. The Guild and Yamaha are all solid wood.

[jtr654]

Yamaha because you won't Play it that much and Yamaha make great guitars for the $$$.

 

[Mikeo]

On 6/13/2020 at 5:17 PM, DeepEnd said:

Guild--at least the USA models--has been the gold standard for 12-strings for years. I'm also intrigued by the Breedlove Solo 12 string. https://www.elderly.com/products/breedlove-solo-concert-12-string-ce-red-cedar-ovangkol-acoustic-electric-guitar The ovangkol back and sides have similar properties to rosewood but they're laminated like the back and sides on the Taylor. The Guild and Yamaha are all solid wood.

They are very nice.

They still make the USA 512 too. It's not cheap.  Under 4k though.

I like the Taylor stuff too, like Taylor 562ce 12 String

The Taylor has a bolt on neck, so if it ever needs a reset, it will be easier and less costly.

Different strokes, as the say.

 

 

 

 

 

[Mikeo]

I'd be torn between the Taylor and the Guild. There's no pick up system in the Guild, a decent one will add to the cost.

The Taylor, I'd rather not have a cutaway on a 12 string, but if you want to plug in, the ES2 it's a very decent pup. I have one in a Koa GS mini, before they stopped putting that system in the GS Mini's.

Neither one has  decent hardshell case with it.

So if you gigging, the Taylor would be complete. If it's a home strummer/ recorder and you need no pick up, I'd go with the Guild.

 

[Glenn F]

I'd try the Guild. Also, if you don't mind Richlite/Micarta, Sigma has a few inexpensive models. Don't know if they're available there, though.

[daddymack]

13 hours ago, Mikeo said:

I'd be torn between the Taylor and the Guild. There's no pick up system in the Guild, a decent one will add to the cost.

The Taylor, I'd rather not have a cutaway on a 12 string, but if you want to plug in, the ES2 it's a very decent pup. I have one in a Koa GS mini, before they stopped putting that system in the GS Mini's.

Neither one has  decent hardshell case with it.

So if you gigging, the Taylor would be complete. If it's a home strummer/ recorder and you need no pick up, I'd go with the Guild.

 

Well, if you read the OP, he clearly said he didn't need a cutaway or a p-up...so that would be a 'Guild vote', then?

[Mikeo]

9 hours ago, daddymack said:

Well, if you read the OP, he clearly said he didn't need a cutaway or a p-up...so that would be a 'Guild vote', then?

Got that.

 

[kwakatak]

Yeah, sorry about that. It kind of disqualifies the Taylor out of the gate. I included it because I actually tried the 254ce DLX, the 150e and the 458e and felt their action and neck profiles were very comfortable. I would actually like to try the Yamaha. Guild is pretty much the standard so I’m not surprised that it gets the recommendations it has. 

[Freeman Keller]

Neal, you are capable of building a 12 string.   That way you could make exactly what you want for the strings and tunings you plan to use and the sound you hear in your head.    I currently own three acoustic twelves, two of which I built, and they are very different guitars.

Fwiw - I used to recommend the Seagull S12 as a pretty good bang for the buck 12 string and I happen to like all of Taylor's twelves, including the 150e.   Just reglued the bridge on a nice little MIC Guild (don't remember the model, its in the shop and I could go look at it), again, nice playing guitar - seems happy tuned down two semi tones.   

 

Edit - I just looked at the guitar - its a D1212, all mahogany dread (I like smaller bodies better).   Typical Guild neck, seems to run in the 700-750 price range which seems reasonable.   I've got it tune to D standard with lights, waiting for the owner to come get it.   I don't think it really needed the bridge reglued but the owner insisted - went very smoothly.    By the way,  I do have a few budget 12's that I would suggest staying as far away as you can - the Fender Hellcat is on top of that list.

[DeepEnd]

On 6/15/2020 at 9:32 AM, daddymack said:

Well, if you read the OP, he clearly said he didn't need a cutaway or a p-up...so that would be a 'Guild vote', then?

I interpreted that part as a "Rather not" instead of a hard "No." One reason I mentioned the Breedlove. Not ignoring kwak's wishes by any means but if the rest of the guitar is what he wants electronics/cutaway might be something he could live with.

[kwakatak]

Quote

Neal, you are capable of building a 12 string.   That way you could make exactly what you want for the strings and tunings you plan to use and the sound you hear in your head.    I currently own three acoustic twelves, two of which I built, and they are very different guitars.

To be honest, I need a lot more practice at building though the two MJ bodies I made would likely make for a good solids body for a 12 string. I imagine that the bracing would have to be at least 5/8” tall with no scalloping whatsoever and a double truss rod. 

FWIW I already have a 12 string but it’s unplayable; several years ago I was gifted with an Epiphone Texan FT-160N whose neck block came unglued from the inside of the body,  leaving the neck cantilevered into the soundhole and deforming the laminated top. The bridge (which has a floating adjustable saddle) also pulled up. I’m sure if I suited up the neck block with epoxy and some additional side braces I could get the neck angle back. 
 

 

[Mikeo]

7 hours ago, kwakatak said:

To be honest, I need a lot more practice at building though the two MJ bodies I made would likely make for a good solids body for a 12 string. I imagine that the bracing would have to be at least 5/8” tall with no scalloping whatsoever and a double truss rod. 

FWIW I already have a 12 string but it’s unplayable; several years ago I was gifted with an Epiphone Texan FT-160N whose neck block came unglued from the inside of the body,  leaving the neck cantilevered into the soundhole and deforming the laminated top. The bridge (which has a floating adjustable saddle) also pulled up. I’m sure if I suited up the neck block with epoxy and some additional side braces I could get the neck angle back. 
 

 

Maybe, maybe not.

Might need a neck rest.

 

 

 

[Freeman Keller]

Breaking news.   I was playing the Guild last night, my wife looked up from her reading and asked "what guitar is that?".   "Larry's 12 string", I said, "I reglued the bridge for him".   "Doesn't sound as good as yours" she said and went back to her reading.     The lesson, as always, is to play before you buy.

[kwakatak]

4 hours ago, Mikeo said:

Maybe, maybe not.

Might need a neck rest.

It's a bolt on, so it shouldn't be hard. The neck comes off just like on an electric with 4 huge wood screws that are accessed from a removable panel in the back. The internal block is HUGE; about the size of a small brick. The hardest part is seeing what I'm doing inside the sound hole.

The Texans have a tongue in groove bolt on neck joint similar to what you'd find on a solid body electric. The internal block is HUGE and there's no glue involved. I took the neck off and it weighs a ton. I could use it to play field hockey. I have a feeling if I fixed this guitar it would still sound like what it is: an overbuilt but underdesigned laminate.

[kwakatak]

49 minutes ago, Freeman Keller said:

Breaking news.   I was playing the Guild last night, my wife looked up from her reading and asked "what guitar is that?".   "Larry's 12 string", I said, "I reglued the bridge for him".   "Doesn't sound as good as yours" she said and went back to her reading.     The lesson, as always, is to play before you buy.

Do you use a Tonerite? ;o)

[Freeman Keller]

14 minutes ago, kwakatak said:

Do you use a Tonerite? ;o)

I was given a Tonerite.   I gave it away.   You don't hear much about them anymore, do you?

[kwakatak]

I have one laying around here. Somebody gave it to me. They’re a one trick pony. 

[daddymack]

for those who are scratching their heads...Tonrerite is a device that emits sub-sonic pulses that supposedly 'mimics' the aging process of tonewood. Several top luthiers have endorsed them.

This is the first reference to one that I have heard in quite a while......

[Gibson29]

53 minutes ago, daddymack said:

for those who are scratching their heads...Tonrerite is a device that emits sub-sonic pulses that supposedly 'mimics' the aging process of tonewood. Several top luthiers have endorsed them.

This is the first reference to one that I have heard in quite a while......

I used one for 2 weeks on a guitar.  No change that I noticed, it’s one of those gimmicks, like homeopathy, that have only anecdotal evidence.  But hey!-  back to real budget 12- string discussion!

I’m kind of smitten with Paul Brett’s offerings, “Vintage”, would love to play one, and they’re pretty cheap if you can find them.

https://reverb.com/uk/item/6208803-vintage-viator-vtr800pb-12-paul-brett-12-string-acoustic-travel-guitar-bag-86