Members thecrayonset Posted March 29, 2010 Members Share Posted March 29, 2010 Hey. Having a little "debate" with the drummer in our band - When recording we use a click track - as it's just easier...However playing live - I think it sometimes suits to speed up a little bit (obviously gradually + everyone together) for parts of the song that are bigger / more epic sounding. Think it just helps the dynamics... Is this normal ?? Do other bands do this or generally just stick to the same tempo throughout songs??Any examples of well-known bands speeding up a bit?? Thanks!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members allexcosta Posted March 29, 2010 Members Share Posted March 29, 2010 Mostly used in classical or alternative music, but can be done in any kind of music no problem. I've never played in a band that did that, though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted March 29, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted March 29, 2010 I wouldn't make a habit of it. Some songs intentionally speed up gradually. Old examples are Stairway to Heaven, and Money (almost imperceptably). But if you do this to songs that weren't written that way, it'll probably seem "off" to sober listeners. Drunk listeners may feel that time is slowing down for them...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted March 29, 2010 Members Share Posted March 29, 2010 Lot's of song "tempo breath". Often the chorus or bridge will be just a little bit different tempo than the verse or (pardon the pun) visa versa. I play with a beat bug temp ref on my snare drum (kind of a bpm tachometer), and as long as we stay close and/or come back to the original tempo, all is good. IMO music SHOULD be a bit maleable, otherwise it sounds contrived. I have cataloged the bpm for most of our material but in the end it's what feels right at the moment (the catalog is just for a reference starting point if there's any question). It's all about soul and a metronome has no soul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JoeDirt Posted March 29, 2010 Members Share Posted March 29, 2010 Man in the Box is an example of a more modern song that changes tempo(speeds up) in the chorus as compared to the verses. Music needs to breath a little, let it flow and have some fun. Using click tracks live takes the fun out of Rock and Roll. BTW, I do the same thing JR. My TD-20 has the ability to tell me the tempo I am playing and I also use it as a point of reference to make sure we aren't playing light speed compared to the original song. But other than that I don't watch it much because it drives my bass player batty if he sees me looking at it. His perception is that I am adjusting constantly even though I am just checking current tempo. It's pretty funny actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kmart Posted March 29, 2010 Members Share Posted March 29, 2010 Push in the chorus, pull back in the verse: done ridiculously frequently. You could probably name bands that don't do this faster/easier than those who do. However, we're talking 1-2 bpm max in most cases, and you'd have a hard time noticing it without the song being mapped to a click in the first place. This CAN be simulated if playing with a click, as well: play backbeats a bit ahead of or behind the beat, and there you go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thecrayonset Posted March 29, 2010 Author Members Share Posted March 29, 2010 Thanks all - much appreciated- agree it should be fluid sounding and not set in stone...It seems to be generally a battle between me (guitar + vox) v. drums in terms of trying to pick things up / slow things down a little... From my previous band it used to happen naturally that we'd movetogether (i think the drummer followed me). Can I ask from your experience is it something you practice / does someone follow a "leader" / does it just happen naturally?? thanks again RB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted March 29, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted March 29, 2010 The main issue is that the band has to practice this and make the transitions seamless and perfectly in sync. Otherwise the changes will feel like mistakes by the drummer...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Black Frog Posted March 29, 2010 Members Share Posted March 29, 2010 Listen to the original of the Stones, Honky Tonk Woman. ....talk about speeding up. check out the beginning tempo (111-112bpm) vs. the end tempo (125-126bpm).... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted March 29, 2010 Members Share Posted March 29, 2010 Listen to the original of the Stones, Honky Tonk Woman.....talk about speeding up. check out the beginning tempo (111-112bpm) vs. the end tempo (125-126bpm).... Listening to non clicked songs at the beginning, and then at the end, can be very revealing. There's a "recording" drummer I know that sometimes sits in with my regular "party" band. The first time he filled in for our drummer (who's very good) the folks in the band thought he was slowing down! In fact he was stubbornly refusing to move the tempo - the guy plays like a metronome. When there is a sub drummer, I usually count the songs in. I found with my studio friend, I had to count every song in about 5 to 10 bpm faster (depending on the song) because he wouldn't speed up, making the end of the song drag. I also asked/begged him to creep the tempo up near the end 1 or 2 bpm if he could bring himself to do that:) The stuff we do is all musty dusty R & B and rock. Some genres however work just fine (if not better) with a click - modern rock, modern country, rap... all the stuff that was originally recorded WITH a click. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kmart Posted March 29, 2010 Members Share Posted March 29, 2010 Can I ask from your experience is it something you practice / does someone follow a "leader" / does it just happen naturally?? It can be either scenario depending on how 'in tune' the musicians playing are with each other, but since you're trying to accomplish it and the drummer doesn't want to or currently doesn't do it, it is clearly something you will HAVE to practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TheDoctorMo Posted March 29, 2010 Members Share Posted March 29, 2010 Hey. Having a little "debate" with the drummer in our band -When recording we use a click track - as it's just easier...However playing live - I think it sometimes suits to speed up a little bit (obviously gradually + everyone together) for parts of the song that are bigger / more epic sounding. Think it just helps the dynamics...Is this normal ?? Do other bands do this or generally just stick to the same tempo throughout songs??Any examples of well-known bands speeding up a bit??Thanks!! We use a tempo light on my guitar processor's floor controller. That gets us our initial tempo. Some songs, such as Me and Bobby McGee, speed up, according to the original. However, on other songs, I would prefer we stay close to the original tempo, all the way through. Some songs have guitar solos/riffs that are hard to pull off when the drummer is going 20BPM faster than the original. Also, for me, the lyrics don't tend to flow out of my mouth when playing too fast. Muscle memory plays a big part in pulling off a polished song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members B. Adams Posted March 29, 2010 Members Share Posted March 29, 2010 I've seen a few national-level acts that play along with tracks from a multitrack, and one of the tracks is click that gets sent to the drummer. The tempo of the click track sometimes changes during the song, and since it's in time with the other tracks it's easy to follow the tempo change. The other tracks are typically sound effects and backing vocals, or odd instruments that were on the album but the band doesn't play. There's a lot involved with that kind of setup though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Black Frog Posted March 29, 2010 Members Share Posted March 29, 2010 A drummer can get real-time feedback of tempo with a "Tempo Ref", kind of like a reverse metronome. Instead of the drummer playing to a set beat, this item tells the drummer what speed his beat actually is: http://temporef.com/temporef.htm They are pretty cool- sensor inside picks up the snare hits and gives you bpm while you play. I have the Tempo Ref and Mini Ref and they work great. Very small and mount right on the drum. All you need is a glance view at it once and while to see if you're being consistent.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Black Frog Posted March 29, 2010 Members Share Posted March 29, 2010 I've seen a few national-level acts that play along with tracks from a multitrack, and one of the tracks is click that gets sent to the drummer. There's a lot involved with that kind of setup though. And the drummer needs to have IEM's or headphones- it is very annoying for most other band members to have a loud "CLICK!" coming through a stage wedge...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kmart Posted March 29, 2010 Members Share Posted March 29, 2010 I've seen a few national-level acts that play along with tracks from a multitrack, and one of the tracks is click that gets sent to the drummer. The tempo of the click track sometimes changes during the song, and since it's in time with the other tracks it's easy to follow the tempo change.The other tracks are typically sound effects and backing vocals, or odd instruments that were on the album but the band doesn't play.There's a lot involved with that kind of setup though. Logistically speaking, it's really not all that much to deal with: a source for playback (anything from an iPod to a laptop to a DA88 digital recorder or the like in playback mode), appropriate cables/adaptors to send tracks and click to the right locations (ie, click & tracks to drummer, tracks ONLY to FOH, for example), probably a DI for house feed and that's about it. If you don't want click coming through monitor wedges, some way to send it to headphones/in-ears as well. Depending on how you go, you could carry everything you needed in a 2-space rack case (or smaller). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted March 30, 2010 Members Share Posted March 30, 2010 A drummer can get real-time feedback of tempo with a "Tempo Ref", kind of like a reverse metronome. Instead of the drummer playing to a set beat, this item tells the drummer what speed his beat actually is:http://temporef.com/temporef.htmThey are pretty cool- sensor inside picks up the snare hits and gives you bpm while you play.I have the Tempo Ref and Mini Ref and they work great. Very small and mount right on the drum.All you need is a glance view at it once and while to see if you're being consistent.... That's the exact same unit I mentioned earlier. I love it. There used to be a unit made years ago called the Russina Dragon (great play on words :>). Agreed it's only a guage to tell you if you're staying solid and in the ballpark. It shouldn't rule your playing (or it sounds too much like you're playing to a metronome). I use a remote piezzo PU taped to my snare head and built a velcroed bracket w/Ubolt to hang it on a cymbal stand where it's easily visible and I can still watch for cues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dukey Posted March 30, 2010 Members Share Posted March 30, 2010 We try to keep as close to the original rhythm as we can but during live gigs it's unavoidable that sometime a song is played a little faster/slower then during practice. basically that's not such a big deal. Some songs, such as Me and Bobby McGee, speed up, according to the original. - Since when????? In the Janis Joplin version, the basic tempo doesn't change - only drum feeling changes the last part is played double time but not faster - I had a big issue explaining this to our former drummer I even had to show him how to do it- in stead of playing double time he was speeding up - try counting it out from start to finish then you'll see that the tempo doesn't change only the "feel" changes GreetzWill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TheDoctorMo Posted March 30, 2010 Members Share Posted March 30, 2010 Some songs, such as Me and Bobby McGee, speed up, according to the original. - Since when????? In the Janis Joplin version, the basic tempo doesn't change - only drum feeling changes the last part is played double time but not faster - I had a big issue explaining this to our former drummer I even had to show him how to do it- in stead of playing double time he was speeding up - try counting it out from start to finish then you'll see that the tempo doesn't change only the "feel" changes Tap for Beats Per Minute BPM Using cut time: 0:00 = 175 BPM0:30 = 182 BPM1:15 = 186 BPM2:45 = 190 BPMThe song ends around 196 BPM. 196 > 175, therefore, the song's tempo increases throughout its length. mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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