The problem with

[Axisplayer]

well hell lets sell him the space shuttle to haul it in.

I work at NASA. We need them right now, but soon we could make you a good deal on one of them.....

[Coaster]

maybe i'll talk to Uli about something a little more silver and black.

[vaughn4380]

Why is it absurd? It's way over his budget, but it's not out of line for a band of that size. The sales guy was in a tough (maybe impossible) spot. The OP's budget (and transportation) is really way too small for what he's trying to do. What is a "Gymnasium event for 200 kids"? I never rolled into a 200-person club with anything less than 4732's on top of 2x18 subs. The salesman has the option to sell him a system that is in-budget, but inadequate for anything but the smallest gigs. He runs the risk of having a customer accept his advice only to grow frustrated once he finds that the system he bought doesn't do what he wanted it to do (regardless of what he told the salesman he wanted it to do). That customer than goes to "the other guy" next time he wants to buy something. Or, the salesman can say, "Well if you want to do it right, you gotta spend $15K" -Dan.

 

 

Interesting perspective. Reminds me of a common debate among guitar players, some believe you can't play any gig without (at least) a 100 tube amp and 4x12 cabinet, even a 20 person back yard BBQ, others use a 12 watt Fender Deluxe for the same gig.

 

Let's rephrase the question to more accurately represent the situation: I have $4,000, a Ford Fusion, no PA currently, and the band is already commited to playing gigs. What would you suggest? I'm not trying to be confrontational, just wondering what your take is on the situation.

 

 

I would love to roll into our gigs with 4732's on top of 2x18 subs but I don't have the cash to buy the transport vehicle let alone the speakers.

 

Others have been very helpful in this thread and I think we can "make do" with some high quality JBLs (or Yorkies) and greatly improve our situation.

[StratGuy22]

I work at NASA. We need them right now, but soon we could make you a good deal on one of them.....

A space shuttle, gutted on a lot would be an awesome house!!!!

[Axisplayer]

Where did you ever get the idea that this group would support the concept that something is better than nothing?

[vaughn4380]

I work at NASA. We need them right now, but soon we could make you a good deal on one of them.....

Sweet, but my budget is still $4,000, what kind of discount you offering?

[Axisplayer]

That will buy you a tire.

[Coaster]

he could buy it as needed; a tire here, an o ring there.

[agedhorse]

he could buy it as needed; a tire here, an o ring there.

 

 

Would that be a Behringer o-ring rebranded as a Morton Thiokol part?

[Axisplayer]

OMG. The thought of that is REALLY scary.

[StratGuy22]

I like how they put it in the movie Armageddon.

 

"remember, your sitting on a nuclear bomb strapped to a rocket and a machine with 200,000 moving parts, built by the lowest bidder"

 

[Mogwix]

A lot of bands are happy, and sound great, through a lunchbox mixer and a pair of passive 12" cabs on sticks. Sometimes the shows sound pretty bad, but neither the band nor the audience cares, they're just there to rock out.

So, what are the "minimum requirements", really? In this case, I'd say an 8ch powered lunchbox mixer and a pair of yorkville e12's. The rig can be expanded later on, as need and budget dictates, but the rig has to start somewhere.

[boomerweps]

No one around to rent from? Like a decent system for a wanna be sound provider trying to get into the business or a decently already PA equipped band that could use some return on investment on their PA gear and isn't already booked on that date? Me & my one bandmate do that a bit. And I've worked a few times for another local sound provider that's often available. We don't use him because we have all the gear and a soundguy, plus, although he has a much better setup for outdoors, it would cost us about 2/3 of our pay ;>( But if you don't have the gear, it's a way to play, make a name for the band and earn SOME money.

Boomerweps

[Shaster]

A lot of bands are happy, and sound great, through a lunchbox mixer and a pair of passive 12" cabs on sticks. Sometimes the shows sound pretty bad, but neither the band nor the audience cares, they're just there to rock out. So, what are the "minimum requirements", really? In this case, I'd say an 8ch powered lunchbox mixer and a pair of yorkville e12's. The rig can be expanded later on, as need and budget dictates, but the rig has to start somewhere.

 

 

Ford Fusion and $4000? See above Mogwix system, or for an even lighter one, a Yorkville M810 (orM1610) and two to four (depending on budget and space) NX35's. These speakers are around thirty pounds each. If you have two you set up slightly in front of them. If you've got four you can use two as monitors and two as FOH. Maybe you only need one monitor, maybe you need none. Time, budget and needs will dictate.

 

The same sort of thing would be available in the JBL line (with a Yamaha powered mixer perhaps) and the MRX line.

 

Otherwise... a MixWiz (or a smaller Soundcraft small format mixer) two NX55P's and up to two NX25P's (for monitors). However the MixWiz isn't exactly a small board once it's in a proper case and squeezed into a small car.

 

That system would also be available in the JBL line as four PRX612's - which has already been suggested.

 

Did you say they all have to fit in the trunk? If so you might want to go with smaller monitors because you still have to fit stands, PA head... in there as well.

[vaughn4380]

Ford Fusion and $4000? See above Mogwix system, or for an even lighter one, a Yorkville M810 (orM1610) and two to four (depending on budget and space) NX35's. These speakers are around thirty pounds each. If you have two you set up slightly in front of them. If you've got four you can use two as monitors and two as FOH. Maybe you only need one monitor, maybe you need none. Time, budget and needs will dictate. The same sort of thing would be available in the JBL line (with a Yamaha powered mixer perhaps) and the MRX line. Otherwise... a MixWiz (or a smaller Soundcraft small format mixer) two NX55P's and up to two NX25P's (for monitors). However the MixWiz isn't exactly a small board once it's in a proper case and squeezed into a small car. That system would also be available in the JBL line as four PRX612's - which has already been suggested. Did you say they all have to fit in the trunk? If so you might want to go with smaller monitors because you still have to fit stands, PA head... in there as well.

 

 

I am leaning heavily towards the PRX612s suggested. Not everything needs to go in the trunk, the back seat is available too. I have carried four JBL 12 inch floor monitors, guitar amp, guitars, and assorted mics and stands in this car before to help out a buddy. So I think four PRX612's would be fine. The monitors from the church (passive JBL 12 inchers of some type) and the related amp will be transported in the drummers car from the church. So I only need to carry the mains (four PRX612s), the board, the mics and my amp and guitar in the car.

 

There is a small voice in the back of my head that says to buy the PRX615s, I measured my trunk and they should fit with no problem.

[IsildursBane]

did i miss something? is this a rock band, or not? i thought i kept reading 5 vocals and two or three instruments, small church parties.

 

 

That's the stuff he wants to put through the tiny system. He's got 5 vox + an acoustic guitar, keyboards, bass guitar, and drums (didn't see an electric guitar, but I may have missed it).

 

Asking what a 10-piece band needs for a PA is like asking how long is a piece of string. They could be Grandpa Earl's Sunday Front Porch Band and not need/expect ANY amplification or they could be The Rolling Stones and need a couple dozen semis leapfrogging across the country.

 

 

in fact i think a mixwiz is overkill (but a good board). the difference between moving around a mixwix and moving a GL2400 is substantial. if i am not a paid sound provider i would rather not haul around a board that size for free. then what do you haul all that in? the difference in size between the absurd system and others mentioned is, the absurd system takes up a LOT more space. well hell lets sell him the space shuttle to haul it in.

 

 

Believe me, I get your point. I don't even necessarily disagree with you. But it's one thing to come on a message board and say "I have $4K, what can I get to do quiet shows?" and another thing to call a vendor (or rental shop) and say, "I have a 5-piece band + 5 vocalists, what kind of system do I need?" A show for "200 kids" at an 8am Special Olympics rally is a lot different than a show for 200 drunk college students on spring break.

 

The salesman also has to take into account that the customer could be saying that he wants a budget system for quiet shows, while really expecting it to perform like a legit rig. For the rental/hire guys - how often do you have to read-between-the-lines when a customer (say, a non-profit or a promoter) asks you for a cheap, budget system, but you know that the real requirements needed to get the show done in the manner in which people expect it to be done are actually far greater than what's being spec'd? That's the same thing the salesman faces. Selling someone a product that you know will only work in a narrow range of cases is a tough position to be in.

 

 

Interesting perspective. Reminds me of a common debate among guitar players, some believe you can't play any gig without (at least) a 100 tube amp and 4x12 cabinet, even a 20 person back yard BBQ, others use a 12 watt Fender Deluxe for the same gig.

 

 

Eh... I didn't (and wouldn't) say that you can't do these shows on a small system. But I would say that it's very dependent on the band. If you're designing the system for your own band, that's great. You know exactly what you guys need, you know what you can live without, and how to keep everything small. However, if I was asked to spec a system for a band of this size, I would go with something larger, because I don't know what sort of gigs they'll wind up playing, and I need to factor in some wiggle room to accommodate somewhat larger/louder gigs, as well as the variability between the expectations I'm given and the expectations that actually exist.

 

You can draw the same analogies about computers. A $400 "cheap laptop for e-mail and surfing the web" may be perfect for one person and painfully slow for another. How is the salesman to really know?

 

-Dan.

[Quarterwave]

Some Yamaha SM12V clubs for mains and a powered mixer - something like a Mackie 808S / Yamaha EMX512SC or a Peavey XR 8600 would get the job done and not be terrible - I've played in church bands and the volume is almost always LOW - so no need for a rack of QSC PLX3602's, 24 channel board etc.... that is just overkill IMO.

I played HUNDREDS of bar gigs with a Yamaha 512SC and some Yamaha Clubs and it was always fine. Not amazing mind you, but hey - we kept on getting re-bookings, so they must not have sounded THAT terrible.

The way I see it, you have 2 worthwhile choices -

1) Pay the extra money (most of your budget) and get a nice system that consistently sounds good, and will give you the minimal hassle to get sounding good (all things being equal).

2) Buy something cheaper (see Yamaha equipment above), which will get the job done, but might not be ideal if you need to do gigs bigger than those you have mentioned in your earlier posts....

Many of the guys here have posted great setups - Yorkville powered speakers or E12's are good, as are the JBL MRX (unpowered) or PRX (powered) series.... Those speakers running off a Mixwiz and a basic EQ will sound great. You won't move mountains with bottom end, but that's never been needed in a church gig from my experience.... Of equal importance is that you should be able to stay within budget AND get it all loaded into a car.

If you look on eBay and Craigslist, there are ALWAYS good deals going on somewhere - especially if you have cash and the advertiser needs to sell.

That applies to Yorkville gear especially - despite them being equal to or better than their JBL counterpart (FWEIW, I run Y'ville tops and subs for my FOH and JBL MRX's for monitors), they just don't have the little orange "JBL" logo on them - so their brand-awareness is not so great amongst the general public..... which is good for you if buying used.

Regarding monitors - if you need more of them - you can always do what I tell my singers to do - to bring their own in-ears or powered speakers with cables, and that you can run them their own personal mix (a Mixwiz can do this no problem, as it has the capacity to send 6 separate monitor mixes - which not many mixers of that size / price can do - which is part of the reason that it is highly regarded in it's price range).

That way - you don't end up carrying around other people's stuff, and don't have to deal with all the hassles that that entails.

In any event, good luck with your search, don't get fooled by brands like "Phonic / Samson / Behringer" and based on the information from the posts in this thread you should be able to put something that sounds great.

[Shaster]

I am leaning heavily towards the PRX612s suggested. Not everything needs to go in the trunk, the back seat is available too. I have carried four JBL 12 inch floor monitors, guitar amp, guitars, and assorted mics and stands in this car before to help out a buddy. So I think four PRX612's would be fine. The monitors from the church (passive JBL 12 inchers of some type) and the related amp will be transported in the drummers car from the church. So I only need to carry the mains (four PRX612s), the board, the mics and my amp and guitar in the car. There is a small voice in the back of my head that says to buy the PRX615s, I measured my trunk and they should fit with no problem.

 

 

You can get fooled by measurements unless you're building in a fudge factor.

 

Whatever you do, be careful of what you're carrying in the back seat. I believe it was this year (or last) that I saw a local news story about a young lady involved in a mid level crash. She was killed by her laptop (no case I'm assuming) that she had stored on the backseat. Just something to be aware of.

 

As well, you really should be able to carry all of your PA in your own car IMO. It's certainly fine to share the load, but it's always nice to be self contained if you have to be.

 

Good luck.

[Coaster]

IsildursBane - i didnt realize he was basically trying to do a whole rock band. in that case the "absurd" system is about right or even a little small.

 

i dont think he really wants a "single stack" style PA though like you or I, he seems to want a more compact rig.

[guitarjrh]

If you only knew how many times the bass player has asked if he should bring his other cab. The man loves his Ampegs and has two of those 6 x 10 cabs with the wheels already installed.

Make him Haul the subs!!!!