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pakman

Saddle has litteraly fallen down in the bridge ! (pics)

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Posted (edited)

Guys you are very kind and helpful, really, i didn't think i would get so much help when registering here ! if I can help anyone in anything let me know as well !

 

Yep I don't know any luthier in my place but I will definitely see one, I love this guitar and it also has a sentimental value for me for other reasons.

 

In fact I am realising that the saddle has certainly been low like this since I own the guitar, you're right, it's impossible it has fallen down. I remember the B string has always buzzed a little bit. At that time i've looked for a fix on the internet and noticed that several people complain about this B string buzzing, without any explanation, on all guitar brands, and leave it as is. So do I.

 

But recently the B and e strings start buzzing more, and it's probably due to the fact strings are old, as simple as that. I think I've overcomplicated things trying to look for any other reason. Well the saddle seemed very low too, so it's a good thing to replace it as well.

 

Anyway I will know tomorrow with new strings, and will update the thread. I'll also remove one of the 2 shims, and maybe set the truss road too as you are right the neck curve doesn't seem right, action seems too high since a few months. The last time I've set it up was a few years ago.

 

 

Thanks again guys, you rock !!

Edited by pakman

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Posted (edited)
. . . Anyway I will know tomorrow with new strings, and will update the thread. I'll also remove one of the 2 shims, and maybe set the truss road too as you are right the neck curve doesn't seem right, action seems too high since a few months. The last time I've set it up was a few years ago.

 

 

Thanks again guys, you rock !!

If you decide to adjust the truss rod make sure you measure and adjust carefully. Put a capo behind the first fret and hold the 6th string down where the neck meets the body. Slip a feeler gauge between the string and the 7th fret. There should be a gap of 0.25 mm (0.01") or less. That gap is called "relief." If there is no gap or very little gap, loosen the truss rod slightly, no more than 1/4 turn, and give the guitar time to "settle," then measure again. If there's a larger gap, tighten the truss rod no more than 1/4 turn, give the guitar a chance to "settle," and measure again. Keep going until the guitar's relief is in the normal range. If you do adjust the truss rod, the action (string height) will change slightly as well. Once you have the relief adjusted properly, you can fine tune the height of the saddle.

Edited by DeepEnd
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That's a Taylor guitar. A neck reset is no big deal... to a tech with the right knowhow and equipment. They're around... even in France.

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Posted (edited)
That's a Taylor guitar. A neck reset is no big deal... to a tech with the right knowhow and equipment. They're around... even in France.

Depends on the age of the guitar. At one time Taylor used more traditional neck joints. We know the OP bought it used 15 years ago so it's at least that old. From what I can find, Taylor adopted the "NT" neck joint in 1999. Previous models had bolt on necks but the fretboard was still glued to the top. The preamp is a rebranded Fishman, which also indicates an older guitar.

Edited by DeepEnd

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Posted (edited)

[uSER=111570]DeepEnd[/uSER] Thank you very much for the procedure, i will apply it and take your advices into account for sure.

[uSER=159077]FretFiend[/uSER] yes I think they know their stuff in France as well, but here the problem is you have to wait a long time before having the chance to get an appointment. All of this made me remember I've already called 2 or 3 luthiers in Paris a few years ago for this buzzing problem (I completly forgot about it) and they told me I can have an appointment in like 2 weeks, so I let it go. I will do the settings you all told me, and for the neck reset I will take an appointment during the holidays since it's not urgent, I usually don't take my guitar with me when I am abroad so I can let the luthier check it.

 

edit : I just checked to know what was this neck reset thing, this video shows the process, that doesn't seem to be complicated at all :) Anyway i will let a professional do it.

Edited by pakman

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Yes, a neck truss rod adjustment is one of the easiest DIY jobs to do on a guitar. It definitely sounds as if an adjustment is required.

 

And also definitely change your strings more often!

 

Bonne chance.

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Posted (edited)

Merci mon ami :)

 

According to the label inside the guitar, it is from 2001.

I thought fishman preamp were newer (and better) than the expression system; ANyway that's not important for me since I play unplugged mostly.

Edited by pakman

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Strings replacement didn't remove the buzzing :(

I've adjusted the relief (truss rod set up), removed one of the 2 shims from under the saddle, cleaned everything, and now I have 3 strings buzzing : D G B. The e string doesn't buzz anymore.

Strings are D'addario EJ16 light (12/53).

The more my right hand strum close to the neck base, the more important is the buzzing. When I strum close to the bridge there are almost no buzz.

The action is perfect I've mesured it (3mm for E and 2.5mm for e), and strings don't touch the neck when they vibrate. The buzzing seems to come from the area I've marked on the pic below.

When I shake the guitar there are some stuff moving inside it in this area, I think it's pickup cables or electronics. Maybe they cause this buzzing? I can't see anything else as the source of this buzz. It's driving me nuts...

 

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","data-attachmentid":32540919}[/ATTACH]

BUZZ.jpg.44a0f1d59a18da74733d9b59eca157fd.jpg

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The truss rod adjustment is both very easy and quite difficult. The goal is to have just enough relief that the envelope of the vibrating string clears each fret up and down the neck. It is always the first adjustment I make after ascertaining that the guitar is properly hydrated, has no significant structural issues, has the proper neck geometry and has good frets. Unless those criteria are all met I don't even start doing a setup.

 

My goal for relief is somewhere between 4 and 6 thousands of an inch (sorry, I'm one of those backwards American and while I could convert everything to metric I prefer to work in my native obsolete system). My upper limit for relief is 0.010, however that is many manufacturers published specification. A little rule of thumb says that if you guitar buzzes (on the frets) in the first few frets you probably need a little more relief. If it buzzes (on frets) at the neck to body joint (12th to 14th fret) you probably need a little less relief. If it buzzes on one fret you probably have a high fret.

 

I recently did a rather long description on how I do setups on another forum (I haven't been very active on HC recently) - I'm not going to repeat it, but if you are interested here it is

 

http://www.tdpri.com/threads/basic-setup.952636/

 

There are lots of other things that cause buzzes and rattles inside a guitar besides setup. A loose wire, cable or electronic component can certainly cause it - they make little stick on things to hold wires in place. A loose or broken brace will rattle. A common cause of buzzes inside the guitar is that the ball end of a string isn't seated against the bridge plate. A quick look inside the guitar with a flashlight and inspection mirror will often show any of these. Loose tuners, a pickguard that is coming loose, can both cause noise. Sometimes, for some reason just changing a string will fix it.

 

 

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I suspect you're correct about a loose wire or something similar but it wouldn't hurt to make sure the strings are seated properly. Your string action is high enough that it shouldn't be a factor. A hardware store will have an "inspection mirror," a small mirror on a stick, if you don't already own one. Use it and a flashlight to check for a wire that might be loose. You can buy adhesive wire clips or in a pinch just use tape. The next most likely thing is a loose brace.

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Thank you both Freeman and DeepEnd, if you were close to my hometown I would have offered you a drink !

Freeman your other thread is very detailed, I bookmarked it for further reference, I think I will learn a lot by reading it.

 

I realize there are so many reasons for which strings can buzz, this instrument is very surprising.

Yes I have a 'dentist mirror' I will use it with a flashlight to inspect the interior, that's a very good idea. Will do this tomorrow, to be continued ::)

Thanks again guys.

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Merci mon ami :)

 

De rien.

 

I think that now you have changed the strings and set up the guitar properly the buzzing must be due to something loose vibrating on or in the guitar. Tie up any loose wires inside the guitar. Check that the tuners are not loose - tighten up the screws. Make sure the strings are fitted correctly at the bridge with the ball-end seated under the top, etc

 

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Posted (edited)

Guys guys guys... I'm happy to announce you I've solved the problem, thanks to your help of course.

After having checked every corner of the guitar, and only a few seconds before throwing it by the window, I realized that the nut saddle had way too deep notches just under the strings that were buzzing. Here we go, when i played those strings they touched the 1st fret and made this annoying buzz.

I was ready to swear the noise was coming from the bridge what a surprise ! Vibrations were propagating from the 1st fret up to the bridge, making it looks like the noise was coming from the bottom of the guitar. What a lesson i've learnt guys, really.

 

So to fix the problem (maybe temporarily I don't know if it will remain like this) I removed the nut saddle, put some glue (cyanoacrylate) in the notches, let it dry, filed it and made new notches, less deep than the old ones. And voila, no more buzz.

 

i am really glad you helped me proceed by elimination to come to the solution, without you I wouldn't have found the culprit, so I thank you all warmly and sincerely, especially Freeman, DeepEnd and Howard, but everybody else as well of course. You were very helpful guys, thank you. The guitar is sounding awesome now, and those D'addario strings are very enjoyable, I was used to elixir (which are great too).

Edited by pakman

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Glad you got it. Normally I would have approached this entirely differently (I think I detail how do a complete setup in that link) but your initial question was pretty specific and didn't make sense at all. My rule of thumb is always to measure everything before I do anything, based on the measurements I can almost always come up with a plan.

 

Glad it worked. I would still suggest having a new saddle made and a new nut. The superglue trick works in a pinch but I prefer to just make a new saddle with the correct nut slots.

 

ps - are we taking any bets on the US vs France in the final?

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Yes Freeman I should have measured everything before starting puting shims everywhere :) Your advice is very wise.

I will replace the saddle and nut by new ones, to start fresh for a few years.

Haha I'm taking bets,even if our women team is not as good as our men one I think you will have to replace saddles and nuts and everything after the game :)

 

Merci Howard, c'est très agréable de jouer avec une guitare qui fonctionne bien !

 

 

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Posted (edited)
. . Merci Howard' date=' c'est très agréable de jouer avec une guitare qui fonctionne bien! . .. . [/quote']

 

Mais oui. C'est tres difficile de jouer une mauvais guitarre. Prende plaisir!

 

Edited by garthman
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Congratulations on solving the buzz issue. A good tech or luthier can fit a nut and saddle for you. You might as well have a setup and neck reset done at the same time. Best of luck. :thu:

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Here is an interesting coincidence. I got a call from the store that I am loosely associated with - they had a guitar that the owner was complaining about a buzz - would I look at it?

 

The guitar is a pre NT Taylor 710 that has had an after market UST installed. That would put it at roughly the same age as Pakman's. The complaint was buzzing on the first three strings in roughly the 4th to 7th frets. I'm not going to go thru fixing it (I haven't done that yet) but thought I would just take pictures of the evaluation process. First poke around inside with a flashlight and mirror. Nothing out of the ordinary

 

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"medium","data-attachmentid":32542738}[/ATTACH]

 

Now to check that top radius (which is an indicator of hydration). Looks good

 

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"medium","data-attachmentid":32542735}[/ATTACH]

 

Neck angle is next, an indicator of both hydration and geometry. Again, looks good

 

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"medium","data-attachmentid":32542734}[/ATTACH]

 

Put a capon on and a couple of clamps to hold the strings down at the heel, measured the relief on both E strings. Measures 0.004 - 5 which is good

 

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"medium","data-attachmentid":32542736}[/ATTACH]

 

Next is the first fret action, an acceptable 0.020 across the neck

 

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"medium","data-attachmentid":32542737}[/ATTACH]

 

0627191149a.jpg.7d2c98866f6c4e62d82e5ce9de961d00.jpg

0627191147.jpg.a8cae27490efeee6fc7046dc24147571.jpg

0627191151.jpg.9ce58b354dea338b33f18ca5089c38a2.jpg

0627191153.jpg.05cd829885230107b59f4bec95cfe94a.jpg

0627191146.jpg.9ca9a8b669f932a3e8bace15b94eb7d9.jpg

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Posted (edited)

Part 2 - I can only put 5 pictures in one post

 

And lastly the 12th fret action. You can't read the rule but its 0.090 on the high E and 0.105 on the low. Thats high but acceptable

 

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"medium","data-attachmentid":32542808}[/ATTACH]

 

 

All of these have been done without touching the strings or anything else - I'm just measuring it the way I found it. I did a little fret rocking, nothing too bad (11 rocks a bit, there is quite a bit of fall off above 14 but thats OK on an acoustic). Loosen the strings and

 

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"medium","data-attachmentid":32542809}[/ATTACH]

 

 

Bingo! the frets are actualy worse than they appear in the picture. There is no way I can do much about them and no way I'm going to do any setup work until they are addressed. Fill out the paperwork, take the guitar back to the store and let them negotiate with the owner.

 

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"medium","data-attachmentid":32542810}[/ATTACH]

 

 

 

It has take far longer to make this post than it did to evaluate the guitar.

 

 

 

0627191153_HDR.jpg.4cecb4415a0bd5ba507d57ee5ed0f289.jpg

0627191154_Burst01.jpg.46bcac637926f928232cde81148deb85.jpg

0627191156.jpg.3b1cd780a04fc92b84976a46e6319f9f.jpg

Edited by Freeman Keller

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The way you operate is verrrry interesting, and smart! I loved the pics and your comments, this is very knowledgeable (I don't know if this word even exist in english, I think it does). Unforunately last pics are not showing, but your text makes it clear to understand.

In the pic where you measure the neck alignment, the ruler is not on top of the bridge, it seems to be a little bit under it like on my guitar, so it should not be fine, right?

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How is the electrical output? Might make more sense to shim the pickup instead of the saddle. (?)

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Part 2 - I can only put 5 pictures in one post

 

 

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"medium","data-attachmentid":32542809}[/ATTACH]

 

 

Bingo! the frets are actualy worse than they appear in the picture. There is no way I can do much about them and no way I'm going to do any setup work until they are addressed. Fill out the paperwork, take the guitar back to the store and let them negotiate with the owner.

 

 

 

 

thats how worn bad frets look like?

i mean from the picture it does not look that bad and on my main strat i have some playwear and dings on some frets, which look much worse.

i have no buzz and i don't have any troubles while playing, not so as on my first washburn accoustic where it is annoying that the "dings" are in the way when fretting...

 

is this above already a sign for a re-fret? complete neck or just the affected frets?

 

i know my washburn accoustic would need a refret, but it is not worth the guitar and i just keep it for sentimental value as it was my first "real" guitar i rocked for a long time, but i'm asking about my strat neck?

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Its one of those things like when to replace the tyres on your car that is kind of a judgement call. You would hate those frets on an electric guitar, particularly if they were up in the string bending zone. However the guitar plays fine, really does have a nice low action and could go on for a long time without anything done.

 

I was just trying to satisfy the owner who was complaining of a buzz (which I don't hear) - I told him the frets are marginal, I could replace them if he wanted.

 

I also had a bit of a sticker shock the other day. A friend brought his D35 - I told him it needed a neck reset and frets, told him I wouldn't do it but gave him a ball park figure. Sent him to a guy I know by reputation (good) and the actual quote was more than double my guess. I think I should take up guitar repair.....

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