Any thoughts on fundamentals?

[isaac42]

And by that, I don't mean technique, but the actual fundamental frequencies of the notes we play.

 

The fundamental of low E is 41.2Hz. Very few bass speakers go that low. So we're missing out on the fundamental frequency of our lowest notes.

 

But, does that matter?

 

There are several arguments that it doesn't. One is that our ears are not particularly sensitive to sounds that low, so we might not hear them even if they were present. Another is that they aren't really present in most other situations, anyway. Few acoustic instruments other than large pipe organs produce strong fundamentals. Some measurements show that double basses roll off pretty quickly below 100Hz or so. Psychoacoustics allow us to infer fundamentals when they are not present. That's why a low E sounds like a low E, even when the fundamental is not present. Low frequencies tend to bleed into all of the mics on the stage, often causing phase issues, so professional sound men often use high pass filters to limit the lows. The secind harmonic (one octave above the fundamental) is usually stronger than the fundamental anyway, and it, along with other harmonics, has a much greater effect on the sound than the fundamental does.

 

On the other hand, when I try out gear that has greater low frequency extension, it always brings a smile to my face. It sounds good. It's satisfying.

 

So, do we really need to be able to produce those low fundamentals? Even if we can, is it a good idea?

[nice keetee]

pick the battle

 

big venue

small venue

I say a 1x15 if possible

[isaac42]

Sure, but a 1x15" that is relatively flat down to 30Hz to get the low B fundamental, or one that is perhaps more efficient, but goes down only to 80Hz, to get the second harmonic on the low E?

[isaac42]

Another factor I didn't mention is power requirements. It takes 4x as much power to produce a tone an octave lower. That gets expensive, although amplifier power is pretty cheap these days. Another issue is speakers that can handle the power. But those are things that make it hard to do, not impossible. But the expense would stop a lot of people from ever trying. Electronic dance music (EDM), for instance, goes low and loud, so there's no physical reason that bass players couldn't do so as well.

 

Something that has become popular among a lot of bassplayers recently is a high pass filter to roll off the low end. That can be useful to keep low end chaff out of the amplification chain, which can suck up a lot of amplifier power producing unmusical noise. The result is more headroom and a cleaner overall sound. Also, rooms can have unpleasant resonances, and rolling off the frequencies that excite those can help a lot with the sound in the room.

[williegoat]

Some people can hear very low frequencies. I can hear 30Hz clearly through my MDR-7506 headphones, but it doesn't really sound like music, more like a cat purring (for lack of a better analogy). Somewhere just above 40Hz it starts to come together as a musical note. I think it depends on how our minds have been conditioned to interpret sensory input. By 12kHz, I hear nothing.

 

I have three different bass guitars and I cannot tell you if the B or E are in tune, without an electronic tuner.

 

Some people enjoy how low frequencies feel. No, I'm not talking about that girl that used to call you late at night. It is an important element of the theater experience.

[Phil O'Keefe]

And by that, I don't mean technique, but the actual fundamental frequencies of the notes we play.

 

The fundamental of low E is 41.2Hz. Very few bass speakers go that low. So we're missing out on the fundamental frequency of our lowest notes.

 

But, does that matter?

 

There are several arguments that it doesn't. One is that our ears are not particularly sensitive to sounds that low, so we might not hear them even if they were present. Another is that they aren't really present in most other situations, anyway. Few acoustic instruments other than large pipe organs produce strong fundamentals. Some measurements show that double basses roll off pretty quickly below 100Hz or so. Psychoacoustics allow us to infer fundamentals when they are not present. That's why a low E sounds like a low E, even when the fundamental is not present.

 

That's all true.

 

Engineers use this information to make bass audible in mixes too - even when they're played back on small speakers that can't effectively reproduce those lowest fundamentals, you can still "hear" the bass parts on a well-EQ'ed mix because the harmonics are audible, and the ear infers the correct fundamental note / pitch from them.

 

Low frequencies tend to bleed into all of the mics on the stage, often causing phase issues, so professional sound men often use high pass filters to limit the lows.

 

Low frequencies are less directional / more omnidirectional, and yes, they can bleed like mad... and high pass filters can be extremely useful to get rid of the subsonic junk that just muddies everything up, and makes the low frequency instruments harder to hear and differentiate - but most engineers and sound people reserve their use for instruments with little to no bass frequency information - it's rare that I use one on a kick drum or bass mic or DI, and if I do, it's going to be set really low - ~40 Hz or so; I'm not usually going to use the board's default 80 or 100 Hz HPF on a organ, bass or other low frequency sound source - especially when tracking / recording; I can always get rid of it later if I need to, but IMO it's always best to get everything going in and be subtractive later as needed.

 

The second harmonic (one octave above the fundamental) is usually stronger than the fundamental anyway, and it, along with other harmonics, has a much greater effect on the sound than the fundamental does.

 

On the other hand, when I try out gear that has greater low frequency extension, it always brings a smile to my face. It sounds good. It's satisfying.

 

So, do we really need to be able to produce those low fundamentals? Even if we can, is it a good idea?

 

I think it really depends on the situation. You probably don't need or want to in a small coffee shop gig; the small room itself probably won't support that kind of low frequency content. In a larger room, doing a full concert type gig? Yeah, it's nice to have and certainly can be inspiring for the player; as always, try to work with the sound person to get the best sound for the concert and audience. When recording? Give me everything you've got please!

 

 

 

[gspointer]

my favorite bass cab is down 3db at 33 Hz. (Ampeg PR410hlf) I bought mine new, and it was fairly pricey then, but they are pretty cheap now if you can find one!

[isaac42]

For me, the bottom line is that I like being a bass player. I don't want to play the electric low midrange guitar.

[isaac42]

And thank you guys for weighing in. I was beginning to think I was talking to myself!

[isaac42]

Speaking of high pass filters (HPF), I have one, and used it at rehearsal yesterday. Definitely helped. The band tends to get pretty loud, and I have recently been using a 2x10" cabinet. As a result, my amp has occasionally gone into thermal shutdown. I don't know if we were slightly less loud, or if it was the HPF, but the clipping light came on much less, and the amp never shut down. I had the HPF set at its lowest setting, 35 Hz, so it had no audible effect on my 4-string bass.

[williegoat]

I have a Squier Jazz bass that is very bright, twangy, like a piano. But my favorite is my Rogue "beatle bass" with tape wounds. The fundamentals come through strong and clear, more like the sound of distant heavy artillery or dynamite.

[isaac42]

One thing I have long thought true is that most people really don't know what real low bass sounds like. When they think of low bass, they think of boosted midbass, generally in the 80-120Hz range. Most people, even bass players, don't have a good idea of what even a solid 40Hz tone sounds like, and how deep that really is.

 

Now, how musically necessary that is, or even whether or not it sounds good, is a different question.