Members techristian Posted April 3, 2019 Members Share Posted April 3, 2019 How many would rather have buttons and knobs rather than a few buttons and MENUS 4-6 levels deep ? Yet this has become acceptable in the musical gear of the 21st century. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Notes_Norton Posted April 3, 2019 Members Share Posted April 3, 2019 +1 for buttons and knobs. Direct and quick control. Imagine feedback, OK wake up the iPad, put in your pass-code, open the app, click a few menus and finally turn the screeching off after your tweeters have self-destructed. Notes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted April 4, 2019 Members Share Posted April 4, 2019 In most cases I’d like it too but it will add to the price. Typically it would add a huge premium to the price (2x-3x or more) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author MikeRivers Posted April 4, 2019 CMS Author Share Posted April 4, 2019 How many would rather have buttons and knobs rather than a few buttons and MENUS 4-6 levels deep ? Yet this has become acceptable in the musical gear of the 21st century. Me! I still can't find an honorable replacement at a price I can justify for my too-tired Soundcraft 600 console but I've been noticing a rather timid trend toward some knobs and buttons on hardware that has been evolving into the buttonless box. More computer audio interfaces are integrating monitor controller functions and nearly-zero-latency monitor mixers are showing up in lower and lower priced interfaces. They're no substitute for real knobs and sliders, but at least it's bringing us closer to the well-proven ergonomics that make a recording studio work. But there's no cheap substitute for mechanical controls. It would take Apple to start putting sliders, knobs, and buttons on iPads, to get the cost of a real hardware-based console down to the price that the majority of today's users will pay. And, unfortunately, we can't get away with raising our rates - if we have any rates at all. ;( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Notes_Norton Posted April 4, 2019 Members Share Posted April 4, 2019 I suppose it depends on your needs and what you are controlling. For my recording DAW, menus are fine. I'd still prefer knobs and sliders, but I understand a mechanical interface to a digital app would add more cost than most people would pay for. For live performance, where everything must be done in real time, and a delay of a few seconds can make a huuuuuuge difference, give me knobs and sliders. The extra cost will repay itself again and again in gig cash. I've been a live performing musician all my life (livin' the dream) and it seems to be getting more and more difficult to find products designed to be used live on stage with immediate control. I have 4 Samson MPL1204 mixers so that I can have spares when one breaks. The repair facility is about 100 miles away, so when 2 break, it's time to load them in the car and take a trip. I would replace them with something newer, but I can't find a small real-estate, rack mount, 12 channel mixer for live performance. I see a few 10 channel mixers, advertised as 12 channel mixers (10 channels with two of them in stereo), I see 12 channel mixers designed for desktop use, and I see mixers that need an iPad or equivalent to operate (see my previous post in this thread about that) but nothing for a live performer that suits my needs. Feedback? The mic needs adjusting in the middle of a song? The wind synth it too loud, or anything else, I want to reach over, and correct it immediately, not wait for apps to load, menus to appear, and so on. Direct positive control. Gimme knobs and sliders, small real estate footprint in the rack, with all the inputs/outputs in the rear of the unit and I'll buy a few so that I have spares. But that's just me and my needs. As a full-time gigging musician, I realize I'm an endangered species. Insights and incites by Notes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author MikeRivers Posted April 5, 2019 CMS Author Share Posted April 5, 2019 I suppose it depends on your needs and what you are controlling. For my recording DAW, menus are fine. I'd still prefer knobs and sliders, but I understand a mechanical interface to a digital app would add more cost than most people would pay for. For live performance, where everything must be done in real time, and a delay of a few seconds can make a huuuuuuge difference, give me knobs and sliders. The extra cost will repay itself again and again in gig cash. There's nothing like pushing the REC button in a session. It's tactile - I know where the button is without looking, and if we're doing a punch-in, I can cue the musician with one hand while operating the recorder with the other hand. The DAW method of setting up an auto punch in/out is super convenient if you're recording yourself alone, but when the guitarist has just finished a take and wants to fix a line, finding the in/out points is too fiddly for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Notes_Norton Posted April 5, 2019 Members Share Posted April 5, 2019 I never looked at it from that end. Every time I've been in the studio, I've been in front of a microphone watching the people on the other side of the glass make their magic. But for my duo, I am the on-stage sound man, and buttons, knobs, and sliders are the only way I want to work the mixer. [img2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","height":"612","width":"612","src":"http:\/\/www.nortonmusic.com\/pix\/GigRig_2019.jpg"}[/img2]. That's my gig rig. Notes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mandolin Picker Posted April 5, 2019 Members Share Posted April 5, 2019 Our church has a Midas 32 mixer for Sunday morning service in the gym. Had it now for several months. Its a nice board but it drives me crazy. To adjust gain I need to select the channel first. But it has to be the channel on the right page (32-channel, 16-channels per page). If you want to see a meter along with it, you have to hit the Solo button then look to the screen to the right of the channel, while the gain knob is to the left. Be one channel off or on the wrong page and nothing good happens. I can't tell you how many times I have changed pages and had a fader hit my hand cause it was "in the way." Don't get me wrong, its a nice board and sounds really nice. Has a lot of options on it. But I miss turning the gain at the top of the channel, that the EQ and Aux Sends are all in a line with the Master Gain and Fader. That each channel has its own little meter. That you can place a piece of tape under a channel for a new singer or instrument, and it never changes. Sometimes simple really is better (at least for me). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Notes_Norton Posted April 5, 2019 Members Share Posted April 5, 2019 There is a trend with manufacturers to get away from hardware and do everything via software. Potentiometers, capacitors, inductors, ICs, resistors, cabinets, knobs, displays etc. all cost money, and the labor to assemble is also costly. With software the cost is mostly labor, and new products are often built on routines used in old gear. All this does cut the cost of manufacturing and gives us products at a better monetary price but we lose something else in that bargain. The question is, when is it worth saving money at the cost of losing function? When that mic is feeding back and you have to wake up an iPad, open an app and scroll down menus to turn the volume on that channel down, IMO it's definitely not worth it. Eardrums are priceless and tweeters cost money to repair or replace. I feel the same way about software synthesizers. It's getting harder and harder to find good hardware synth modules. With hardware modules we have buttons and knobs with direct access to many of the parameters. Plus since the sounds are stored in ROM and the computer CPU doesn't have to 'do the math' for every note and every nuance of every not there is virtually no latency (it's around 5 ms in the modules I have). And the hardware synths that I bought with my Atari/ST, DOS 5 PC and Motorola Mac computers still work today. Some of the sounds in these modules have never been duplicated or improved on while others are definitely dated. But the great voices in my old TX81z or MT-32 that are stellar can still be used today. No software product of that era can still be used today. Don't get me wrong, I love software and for things like my DAW, I never want to go back to magnetic tape, but for some other things, hardware is still the best choice. And ICs and class D amps have lightened the gear I have to schlepp every week to make a living. I'm all for that too. So give me knobs and buttons when I need them and digital improvements when I don't need knobs and buttons. Insights and incites by Notes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author MikeRivers Posted April 5, 2019 CMS Author Share Posted April 5, 2019 There is a trend with manufacturers to get away from hardware and do everything via software. Potentiometers, capacitors, inductors, ICs, resistors, cabinets, knobs, displays etc. all cost money, and the labor to assemble is also costly. With software the cost is mostly labor, and new products are often built on routines used in old gear. All this does cut the cost of manufacturing and gives us products at a better monetary price but we lose something else in that bargain. The question is, when is it worth saving money at the cost of losing function? The thing is that with software-based products (and even mass-assembled hardware products) comes the ability to afford to do a job yourself that you'd formerly do yourself, saving even more money. Why spend $100/hour in a recording studio trying to perfect a song and record it in ten hours when you can spend that same $1,000 and take six months to record the song? Or, on the live sound side, why hire a sound company with an engineer for $400 to do your weekly show when for $4,000 you can buy a good system and you can mix the show from the stage (or your buddy can mix it)? And the manufacturers are happy with that. They make more money selling 100 mixers that cost them bupkis after development costs are amortized than selling expensive hardware in smaller quantities that takes more people and more time to build, a significant cost in parts inventory when they don't know how fast those parts will move off the shelf, more overhead (a larger factory), and greater shipping cost. About the only thing that costs them more per sale is increased technical support - more users asking which menu to open to find the equalizer. And many are getting away with support by other users on forums or social media, and don't even publish a phone number. Creeping meatballism - and we're all meatballs. I would gladly invest $15,000 in a new console if I knew that I'd have enough business to pay for it in five years or so, but that isn't going to happen unless my potential customers had to buy the same $15,000 console instead of a couple of grand's worth of microphones, interface, computer, and software and take all the time they need in order to get the hang of using it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators daddymack Posted April 5, 2019 Moderators Share Posted April 5, 2019 Buttons and knobs for me We have a regular gig in a room with a house PA, but the board is digital, so like Mandolin Picker, I have come to dislike having to select a channel and call it up on the screen and then make adjustments. I told the owner I will gladly bring my 16 channel Yamaha board in and feed 2 channels with it so I can see WTF is going on. It is a major PITA setting mic levels for a 6-9 piece band...6 vocal mics, a mic for each of the horns, and 1-3 mics on the drums. I have the same complaint regarding touchscreen consoles in cars...sure, it looks great, but if I have to look away from the road at 65mph just to change a parameter on the stereo? Give me tactile controls, please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Notes_Norton Posted April 6, 2019 Members Share Posted April 6, 2019 <...snip...> Or, on the live sound side, why hire a sound company with an engineer for $400 to do your weekly show when for $4,000 you can buy a good system and you can mix the show from the stage (or your buddy can mix it)?<...> I have a good system I can mix from stage, and other than when I was in a big band, opening for major acts, I've never had a sound man. I need buttons and knobs to do it myself on stage, because there simply isn't enough time with my hands free from my sax, guitar, flute or synth to scroll through menus. Lead vocals not quite loud enough? Lean over and tweak the gain knob. Done. Manager gives us the "turn down a bit in hand signals" and I can lean over and tweak the master. Done. Direct control, immediate control. I am the sound man, one of the two vocalists, sax player, wind synth player, backing tracks maker, backing tracks player, one of two guitarists, flute player, and front-man on the mic. I haven't got time for menus. But there is more than one right way to do this. My way is right for me, not necessarily for anyone else. Insights and incites by Notes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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