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Problem with XR12 WiFi

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I use a XR12 in my guitar rack to pre-mix all of my various instruments (electric, steel-string, mandolin, etc.). I use my phone to connect to it with the xAir app, which has always worked just fine. I do the same thing with my X32, and have never had a problem with it.

 

Last night, I showed up at the gig and the WiFi refused to connect. After a couple of resets, I finally got the WiFi to connect, but halfway through the app connecting to the console, it disconnected again and refused to reconnect. After multiple rounds of power cycling and resetting to no avail, I finally gave up. Trouble is, I had my mandolin channel muted and had no way to turn it on. angry02

 

The show was sold out, so I assume that there were a lot of devices in the audience...but that's no different than in many previous gigs.

 

Two questions:

 

1) Any idea of the root cause, and is there a way to fix it?

 

2) Does anyone have a work-around? Once the show starts, I cannot dig into the back of the rack and try to make repairs, and without a physical interface I am backed into a corner if I need to make an adjustment. (I do a lot of theater work, so I cannot just stop and take a break or delay the start of the performance.)

 

HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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This is a pretty well documented issue. If you're using the internal wifi, stop using that and use an external router/hotspot, same as what you use with your X32. The internal wifi is not robust, and will fail on you, likely at the worst possible moment. Which is exactly what happened. You might be able to get away with the internal wifi in an isolated environment, such as your rehearsal space, but once you're in a public place all bets are off.

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Understood. Trouble is, I would also have to buy a larger rack to accomodate it (yes, it's that tight, and intentionally so). Given that the one it's in is less than a year old, it's more than a bit annoying.

 

angry02:bangheadonwall:

 

I guess that this is the penalty for buying Brand B. Poor design quality....you get what you pay for.

 

 

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Actually people are complaining about the Souncraft UI & QSC Touch mixers wifi too. It isn't just an issue with Behringer. The mixer does its job well. Since none of these companies are in the business of doing wifi routers they aren't going to be as reliable as a network companies router. They are only going to be as good as the supplier that supplies them their wifi boards. And I have no doubt that to keep costs down, they all probably use the same lowest cost supplier.

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It's not that the mixer's internal Wi-FI is bad, it's all the crap in the 2.4 band mucking things up. 5GHz is a must anywhere but at home.

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It's not that the mixer's internal Wi-FI is bad' date=' it's all the crap in the 2.4 band mucking things up. 5GHz is a must anywhere but at home.[/quote']

 

Then why does a standard Wal-Mart router work fine? It seems to be an issue of not having enough memory allocated to manage a large number of devices requesting discovery info..... :idk:

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Posted (edited)

My suggestion would be a small wi-fi/ethernet router. You could have a small computer with ethernet as a backup in case you can't connect your phone via wi-fi.

 

That way, if you have an issue you won't waste your time and/or get stressed troubleshooting just before the show.

Edited by onelife

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My suggestion would be a small wi-fi/ethernet router. You could have a small computer with ethernet as a backup in case you can't connect your phone via wi-fi.

 

That way, if you have an issue you won't waste your time and/or get stressed troubleshooting just before the show.

 

I'm about ready to just give up on it and go back to a small analog rackmount mixer.

 

More stuff to carry around is moving in the wrong direction - my intent with it was to carry fewer cables and less weight. There's no space in my rack case for a router, and having to carry a laptop/tablet and power supply into every club and pit to be able to change a level or two is just nonsense.

 

I think that this is a case where the newer tech just isn't better. I can tolerate that stuff for a mains console because the benefits outweight the difficulty, but not for a guitar rig mixer.

 

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Actually people are complaining about the Souncraft UI & QSC Touch mixers wifi too. It isn't just an issue with Behringer. The mixer does its job well.

 

From my perspective, the mixer isn't doing it's job well at all. I'm in the middle of a show and suddenly I can't turn on a muted channel? Regardless of the reason or any excuses for the manufacturer's reasons, it's an embarassment, and unacceptable in a professional setting. If I can't rely on a piece of gear to do the job properly 100% of the time, it simply is not suitable for the task.

 

The X32 Rack has a backup system - the front panel works to make changes when nothing else does. The XR12 has no backup.

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I'm about ready to just give up on it and go back to a small analog rackmount mixer.

 

More stuff to carry around is moving in the wrong direction - my intent with it was to carry fewer cables and less weight. There's no space in my rack case for a router, and having to carry a laptop/tablet and power supply into every club and pit to be able to change a level or two is just nonsense.

 

I think that this is a case where the newer tech just isn't better. I can tolerate that stuff for a mains console because the benefits outweight the difficulty, but not for a guitar rig mixer.

 

That's a better choice. Sometimes the old analog world is indeed better.

 

I've slowly abandoned all of my tube amps and gone digital. My main amp is a Yamaha DG80 which has served me well and required zero maintenance in the twenty years that I have had it - but I would not be able to troubleshoot or repair it in the middle of a gig. That being said, Yamaha does have a well deserved reputation for reliability.

 

On the other hand, my Twin Reverb stopped working one night in the middle of a set. A puff of smoke came out of one of the input jacks. With a screwdriver and a spare fuse I was able to get the amp up and running while the band played one song without me. The problem was a short circuit in one of the 6L6 output tubes which physically blew up the corresponding screen resistor. It was obvious, when I slid the chassis part way out of the cabinet, which tube it was. I removed the bad tube and one from the other side of the push-pull circuit, replaced the fuse, slid the chassis back into the cabinet and was ready for the next song.

 

I like the portability and versatility of the modern amplifiers but the old Twin served me well despite the maintenance required and the cost of replacing the tubes every year or two.

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As all mentioned, the commodity 2,4 receiver built into these units (UI, XR, etc) is not robust enough to rely on and going to an external router helps to resolve this issue. The other thing you could try is using a wifi analyzer to determine if one of the 2.4 channels is less crowded then switch to the lower use channel on the mixer.

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Posted (edited)
As all mentioned' date=' the commodity 2,4 receiver built into these units (UI, XR, etc) is not robust enough to rely on and going to an external router helps to resolve this issue. The other thing you could try is using a wifi analyzer to determine if one of the 2.4 channels is less crowded then switch to the lower use channel on the mixer. [/quote']

 

As I noted above, an external router isn't an option - I have no space available, and I have no interest in adding more more cables and junk to have to deal with. The reason I got the XR12 in the first place was to try to simplify my rig, and it has ended up making it more complex - a move in the wrong direction.

 

Second, I have no way of analyzing the EMI patterns before the gig; this should be obvious, as the seats don't have the patrons in place until the house opens and everyone is seated - and by then it's too late to be diagnosing and making changes. Once the downbeat hits, I need my rig to operate without need for any sort of extra effort until the curtain closes at the end of the show. A mixer needs to act like a mixer without any other input required; while I am fully capable of managing the tech involved, I don't have the time or attention to devote to tweaking during a show. This sort of fiddling around with gear might be acceptable for a crappy neighborhood bar gig, but not for a paying theater job. The cues come at you fast in this sort of show; you don't get second chances, nor can you call a pause while you sort something out..

 

Bottom line, I am going back to my position that this thing just isn't suitable for live use in a professional setting.

Edited by SteinbergerHack

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Posted (edited)

That's a better choice. Sometimes the old analog world is indeed better.

 

:D

 

I've slowly abandoned all of my tube amps and gone digital. My main amp is a Yamaha DG80 which has served me well and required zero maintenance in the twenty years that I have had it - but I would not be able to troubleshoot or repair it in the middle of a gig. That being said, Yamaha does have a well deserved reputation for reliability.

 

On the other hand, my Twin Reverb stopped working one night in the middle of a set. A puff of smoke came out of one of the input jacks. With a screwdriver and a spare fuse I was able to get the amp up and running while the band played one song without me. The problem was a short circuit in one of the 6L6 output tubes which physically blew up the corresponding screen resistor. It was obvious, when I slid the chassis part way out of the cabinet, which tube it was. I removed the bad tube and one from the other side of the push-pull circuit, replaced the fuse, slid the chassis back into the cabinet and was ready for the next song.

 

I like the portability and versatility of the modern amplifiers but the old Twin served me well despite the maintenance required and the cost of replacing the tubes every year or two.

 

Agree with everything you said here.

 

I am really on the fence on the amp itself. I generally carry either a Bogner XTC or Marshall 3203 to gigs, run through a Two Notes Torpedo Live cabinet emulator, so it's a bit of a hybrid analog/digital system. I still carry the tube head, but not the cabinet. I hate dealing with the weight and size of the tube heads, but I just haven't found any digital amp that I like the sound of, aside from the Kemper.....and it's a bit on the expensive side. :eekphil:

 

 

One thing I have found, though, is that doing away with the cabinet has given me much better control over stage volume. Running all my stuff through a wedge monitor aimed directly at me from downstage makes the guitar nearly inaudible to the rest of the group aside from whatever they want in their monitors, unlike an open-back amp that bleeds all over the stage. It also lets me dial in my sound on the exact same feed that the FOH tech gets. If I need more volume or wider coverage (outdoor stages), I just add a second wedge coming from the side or upstage. This also lets me run my acoustic instruments and vocal mic through the same monitor cabinet, which cleans up the stage and generally makes life easier.....which is where the XR12 was supposed to come in.

Edited by SteinbergerHack

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Agree with everything you said here.

 

 

Cool - I'm going to save this post.

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I am really on the fence on the amp itself. I generally carry either a Bogner XTC or Marshall 3203 to gigs, run through a Two Notes Torpedo Live cabinet emulator, so it's a bit of a hybrid analog/digital system. I still carry the tube head, but not the cabinet. I hate dealing with the weight and size of the tube heads, but I just haven't found any digital amp that I like the sound of, aside from the Kemper.....and it's a bit on the expensive side. :eekphil:

 

I really like the Yamaha DG series of amplifiers. It's 20th century technology but still the most organic feeling digital amp I have ever used. I often get the "I cant believe that doesn't have tubes in it" comments when people hear it for the first time.

 

The downside is that, like a tube amp, they are rather heavy (perhaps that's part of the emulation - carrying it up a flight of stairs creates a certain expectation) My 80 Watt single 12 version weighs about 25Kg (a little over 55lbs US) If you get a chance, try one out.

 

 

One thing I have found' date=' though, is that doing away with the cabinet has given me much better control over stage volume. [/b']Running all my stuff through a wedge monitor aimed directly at me from downstage makes the guitar nearly inaudible to the rest of the group aside from whatever they want in their monitors, unlike an open-back amp that bleeds all over the stage. It also lets me dial in my sound on the exact same feed that the FOH tech gets. If I need more volume or wider coverage (outdoor stages), I just add a second wedge coming from the side or upstage. This also lets me run my acoustic instruments and vocal mic through the same monitor cabinet, which cleans up the stage and generally makes life easier.....which is where the XR12 was supposed to come in.

 

That's probably ideal for the kind of stuff you are doing - especially the show gigs where you are in the pit. That way you get to hear what you need and everybody else can get as much, or as little, guitar as they want through the foldback

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That's probably ideal for the kind of stuff you are doing - especially the show gigs where you are in the pit. That way you get to hear what you need and everybody else can get as much, or as little, guitar as they want through the foldback

 

Absolutely! With a 9-piece horn band, it is very easy to get stage volume out of control - and then nobody is happy, because nobody can hear what they want to.

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Another feature of the DG amplifiers is the motorized knobs. It might seem like a novelty at first - when a patch is recalled from the panel or via MIDI, the analog style knobs move into the position where they were when the patch was saved - but it makes minor adjustments, such as cutting the midrange a bit, obvious, easy and subtle.

 

I was talking to a guitar enthusiast friend of mine, who is a mechanical engineer, about the amp. I couldn't figure out why Yamaha discontinued the line after such a short run. His response was that they were too expensive to build and that was because of the motors.

 

I was concerned about the motors when I bought the amp but the regional Yamaha rep at the time reassured me that Yamaha had been building products with motorized faders for a long time and that I had nothing to worry about. After twenty years of use, I have not had a single technical issue with the amplifier and I have saved a small fortune in tubes.

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As I noted above, an external router isn't an option - I have no space available, and I have no interest in adding more more cables and junk to have to deal with. The reason I got the XR12 in the first place was to try to simplify my rig, and it has ended up making it more complex - a move in the wrong direction.

 

Second, I have no way of analyzing the EMI patterns before the gig; this should be obvious, as the seats don't have the patrons in place until the house opens and everyone is seated - and by then it's too late to be diagnosing and making changes. Once the downbeat hits, I need my rig to operate without need for any sort of extra effort until the curtain closes at the end of the show. A mixer needs to act like a mixer without any other input required; while I am fully capable of managing the tech involved, I don't have the time or attention to devote to tweaking during a show. This sort of fiddling around with gear might be acceptable for a crappy neighborhood bar gig, but not for a paying theater job. The cues come at you fast in this sort of show; you don't get second chances, nor can you call a pause while you sort something out..

 

Bottom line, I am going back to my position that this thing just isn't suitable for live use in a professional setting.

 

I don't know. Set a router on the top of your rack. Plug it in and connect the cat cable. Not that hard.

As far as a wifi analyzer it looks for other "Routers" in your area and the channels they are using. If there is 3 routers in the club your working in and they are all on channel 3 as an example then if your close to one of them and it has more power than the wifi in your mixer it will interfere with your communication. Just find a free or low use channel and change your router to that channel. Take a look at WIFI Analyzer. Its a free android app.

 

 

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.farproc.wifi.analyzer&hl=en_US

 

Doug

 

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Posted (edited)

I don't know. Set a router on the top of your rack. Plug it in and connect the cat cable. Not that hard.

 

Have you ever worked in a theater pit?

 

Let me be clear. There is not room in my rack and I do not want to have to add more junk to carry and connect. I would rather go back to basic analog than carry more crap. The whole point of this addition was to make my setup smaller, lighter and simpler. It's smaller and lighter, but it doesn't work and is not simpler.

 

As far as a wifi analyzer it looks for other "Routers" in your area and the channels they are using. If there is 3 routers in the club your working in and they are all on channel 3 as an example then if your close to one of them and it has more power than the wifi in your mixer it will interfere with your communication. Just find a free or low use channel and change your router to that channel. Take a look at WIFI Analyzer. Its a free android app.

 

I don't play clubs exclusively, and the problem isn't other routers.

 

Imagine a Broadway-sized theater. Empty and during tech rehearsal, everything works fine. 10 minutes before the house opens, it works fine. 10 minutes after the house opens and a few hundred people are seated, it fails and will not recover. My X32 works fine in the same environment, so it is not a characteristic of routed concoles in general - this one just doesn't work properly in a live performamce environment.

 

Once the house opens, I have very limited time to tune, set and prep. I don't have time to screw around with the gear during performance - it needs to work, period. Playing around with a WiFi scanner isn't part of the program - and shouldn't be necessary to begin with.

 

I'm sticking with not suitable for pro use.

Edited by SteinbergerHack

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Posted (edited)

Do you really have to have wireless? Since this is for a guitar rack and your talking a theater pit why not use a cat 5 cable and adapter? I use a Line 6 rack system and from the rack to the control pedal board is a flat Ethernet cable. Its so thin its like its not there. I have an XR18 for our PA, during setup I use the wireless with an iPad. After that I plug in the iPad using an adapter and cable because that always works. What I like about these is you can save where you have been so setup is a breeze. I was reading on Keyboard Corner a guy uses the XR12 to plug all his multiple keyboards into. He has it set and never touches it. He plugs it into his powered speakers for monitoring and provides two XLR lines to the FOH. Seems to me for a guitar rack that's really all you need. A black box for providing multiple ins and outs that wouldn't need ANY adjustments during the gig. I do the same thing but with a rack analog line mixer (Samson). I typically bring two keyboards, an electric guitar, acoustic guitar and bass to my trio gigs.

Edited by kbeaumont

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Posted (edited)
Do you really have to have wireless? Since this is for a guitar rack and your talking a theater pit why not use a cat 5 cable and adapter?

 

Not sure how that works with an Android phone....? Hmmm.....

 

I was reading on Keyboard Corner a guy uses the XR12 to plug all his multiple keyboards into. He has it set and never touches it. He plugs it into his powered speakers for monitoring and provides two XLR lines to the FOH. Seems to me for a guitar rack that's really all you need. A black box for providing multiple ins and outs that wouldn't need ANY adjustments during the gig.

 

The config is basically what you describe - but the usage isn't.

 

Pit gigs involve a bunch of different instruments - typical might be steel-string, nylon-string, electric, and a mandolin, often with very fast swaps. I have to mute the channels for the unused acoustic instruments when they aren't being played so that they don't ring/resonate/feedback, then turn 'em on just before the appropriate cues. Other than that, yes, there is very little "adjustment" going on during the show.

Edited by SteinbergerHack

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Posted (edited)

Yes I have played in a pit in Germany though that was in the 90's. I 'm using wireless instead of cables to my instruments. Right now I have 3 Line 6 G10S units that I just turn on and off. They sit on top of the rack. They are cheap and the way I use them I have never had a battery issue. And I use a shure wireless headset mic system. The one thing I hated was multiple cables on the floor. This is what made me go almost completely wireless. And with the headset, I don't need to keep my face in front of a mic. I can turn on the instrument , play. No cables to get tangled. And no feedback because when the instrument is not used the transmitter is off. I like to use a Extended height drum throne type stool. Previously I was always getting cables wrapped around the damn stool. And setup and tear down is dead simple. No wrapping cables! The only cables are on the keyboards.

 

This way I just pickup an instrument turn on its dongle transmitter and play. Works great, since your near the receiver they never drop out and they are digital so no RF interference. There is also an added benefit of not being electrically connected, no hum! If you have ever used single coil pickups you know what I'm talking about, even the best shielded guitars can suffer from it.

Edited by kbeaumont
clarity
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Posted (edited)

 

 

Your original post is below.

I've been mixing more than 32 years.... As with everything in life there is no free ride. If you don't feel ready to move to digital at least you found out without spending a lot more money. Taking the time to learn how to properly use WIFI and using the right equipment isn't rocket science but you should do what of course works for you and your setup. Let us know what you end up with.

 

Kindest Regards

Doug

 

Doug

 

''''''

I use a XR12 in my guitar rack to pre-mix all of my various instruments (electric, steel-string, mandolin, etc.). I use my phone to connect to it with the xAir app, which has always worked just fine. I do the same thing with my X32, and have never had a problem with it.

Last night, I showed up at the gig and the WiFi refused to connect. After a couple of resets, I finally got the WiFi to connect, but halfway through the app connecting to the console, it disconnected again and refused to reconnect. After multiple rounds of power cycling and resetting to no avail, I finally gave up. Trouble is, I had my mandolin channel muted and had no way to turn it on.

angry02

The show was sold out, so I assume that there were a lot of devices in the audience...but that's no different than in many previous gigs.

Two questions:

1) Any idea of the root cause, and is there a way to fix it?

2) Does anyone have a work-around? Once the show starts, I cannot dig into the back of the rack and try to make repairs, and without a physical interface I am backed into a corner if I need to make an adjustment. (I do a lot of theater work, so I cannot just stop and take a break or delay the start of the performance.)

HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Dookietwo

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Posted (edited)

Your original post is below.

I've been mixing more than 32 years

 

So have I - since the early 80s.

 

. If you don't feel ready to move to digital at least you found out without spending a lot more money.

 

You didn't notice that I also have an X32? :facepalm:

 

Taking the time to learn how to properly use WIFI

 

I know how to use WiFi. I've been developing communicating products in my day gig as an electrical engineer since 1990 - and I have a handful of patents to show for it.

 

Don't blame the user for a product that doesn't work properly.

Edited by SteinbergerHack

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