Decent reverb unti for live vocals....?

[lolalola]

I'm looking for a basic reverb unit that would work for live vocals. I want to show up at a gig with something that will not confuse the sound guy, something I can plug the mic right in to, then have that go straight the desk. I've been using an Alesis nanoverb, but really there's too much going on with that ... any suggestions?

[soulvillemusic]

If you are playing gigs where you have a sound man why do you not want to just let him deal with the effects? That's usually the best way to go.

 

Assuming you still want to do this or you will be running your own sound I would use one of the many pedals available from TC Helicon, Digitech or Boss.

[agedhorse]

Too much going on with a Nanoverb? Yikes.

[lolalola]

Ha! Nooooo, it's too much going on in terms of it has its own specific PSU, more reverbs than I need, etc ... the reverb sounds horrible on a lot of the settings too. Sound guys tend to turn down the reverb on us, so I want to be in control of that side of things.

 

What does Boss do for reverb in terms of vocals?

[rodclement]

Honestly, if you have a sound guy, just tell him to add reverb from his rack and leave it at that, JMO.

 

If you want something else, you have many options but none simpler than the nanoverb. You can go with a TC Helicon unitthat works like a pedal but will still have a lot more than you need or you can go with a simple guitar pedal but I don't see why you would if you have a sound guy and/or a nanoverb.

 

Rod

[rodclement]

As an aside, I had a whole vocal set-up that I carried around to gigs with a digitech unit, my wireless receiver, etc. I did that since most gigs I played were smaller, or poor sound was provided but once you start playing better gigs, I would trust the sound guy. If he lowers the reverb on you, maybe it is because you need it that way, if not, just have a frank talk with the guy and explain it is part of your sound etc and he will most likely let it be. If you are doing a song that you need some extra like a Floyd song or something, talk to the guy before hand, tipping always works!

 

Every time I showed up with my own pedal board to a gig, sound guys looked at me like I was trouble but put yourself in their place, they know what they are doing (most times), have better gear than you (most times) and really don't want to deal with the crazy signal gain issues that our magic boxes may add to the chain. For them it's a hassle, for you it can be a tool, if you both talk it over it may be easier for both sides.

 

Rod

[agedhorse]

 

Ha! Nooooo, it's too much going on in terms of it has its own specific PSU, more reverbs than I need, etc ... the reverb sounds horrible on a lot of the settings too. Sound guys tend to turn down the reverb on us, so I want to be in control of that side of things. What does Boss do for reverb in terms of vocals?

 

 

There are some excellent verbs on the Nano, and it's about as dead-simple as it gets out there. If you can't make the Nano work or it's too much hassle for you, there is nothing else any better.

 

I also think your approach to doing your own reverb from the stage is a set-up for disaster, but you seem to have it all figured out so here's a bit of rope, maybe you can find a tree close by...

[lolalola]

 

I also think your approach to doing your own reverb from the stage is a set-up for disaster, but you seem to have it all figured out so here's a bit of rope, maybe you can find a tree close by...

 

 

Why is it a recipe for disaster, using our own reverb? You think I can always pretty much guarantee good reverb if I speak to the sound guy myself and tell him what we need....? Vocally we've a ton of reverb, it's part of our sound. It's just a hassle having to control it from the stage, so yeah, of course I'd rather it was out of my hands!

[agedhorse]

Bring your own sound guy. I have a feeling you won't be happy with what ANYBODY else does.

 

As far as a recipe for disaster, there's no way you can tell what it sounds like out front from where you are on the stage. That's ok though, when you make it big you can do whatever you want and call it art.

[Randyman]

agedhorse wrote:

 

I also think your approach to doing your own reverb from the stage is a set-up for disaster

 

 

Hmmm... not sure how this works. There's plenty of musicians on this forum who have a FOH sound guy, and who run vocal harmonizers, guitar pedals, etc. on stage that they're obviously controlling themselves. Esp. since the verb/harmonization/special fx that many vocalists and guitarists use are changed up every song, and sometimes within a song (punch in and out of harmony effects for example). As a keyboard player I have my fx within my keyboard (for the most part), but am a big fan of the volume pedal (which of course the FOH guy has no control over).

 

I guess this gets even more involved when you've got monitors that are controlled from FOH as well as stage controlled monitors (such as keyboard and guitar players typically have for their own sounds).

 

I understand the argument that the FOH position is superior for hearing what the audience is hearing (of course), but if various sounds are dependent on the fx/harmonies/etc. that the musician HAS to control, then how is that done? Try to get a monitor mix that's as close to FOH mix as possible (at least in terms of volume)?

[popgadget]

 

agedhorse wrote: I guess this gets even more involved when you've got monitors that are controlled from FOH as well as stage controlled monitors (such as keyboard and guitar players typically have for their own sounds). I understand the argument that the FOH position is superior for hearing what the audience is hearing (of course), but if various sounds are dependent on the fx/harmonies/etc. that the musician HAS to control, then how is that done? Try to get a monitor mix that's as close to FOH mix as possible (at least in terms of volume)?

 

 

This discussion has been about effects, reverb specifically. Generally monitor feeds would be dry, or with minimal reverb. Reverb would significantly reduce GBF. There is no way to know from the stage what the FOH needs in terms of reverb. If you do really need "a ton of reverb", then it is best by far to lettheguyout front deal with it. He is in an infinitely better position to do what is needed. You just need to convey to him what you want.

[lolalola]

That's fair enough. We need as much reverb as can be heard on our recordings, and sound guys seem to not like that, not want to do it for us, as I guess they're used to cleaner sounding vocals. It's hard to convey that ... bringing our own guy to gigs just wouldn't work, we couldn't afford that! :/

[zooLemon]

 

That's fair enough. We need as much reverb as can be heard on our recordings, and sound guys seem to not like that, not want to do it for us, as I guess they're used to cleaner sounding vocals. It's hard to convey that ... bringing our own guy to gigs just wouldn't work, we couldn't afford that! :/

 

 

Remember that if he's kept your monitors dry he still could have drenched the house mix without you knowing!

 

I'd say something like this: "We need a lot of reverb on the vocals in the house mix for an ambient effect. It should sound like this," and then give him a well-known point of comparison (don't expect him to know My Bloody Valentine, what if he's a metalhead?) or have a way to play him a clip of your recordings. Then I'd say: "Verb in the monitors would be great if it's possible, but keep them as dry as they need to be for us to hear ourselves clearly."

[TimmyP]

I find that most guitarists run about twice as much reverb as they should. Self-run vocal reverb will likely be the same story. Plus, reverb in the monitors is usually a bad idea both from a gain-before-feedback and pitch accuracy perspectives.

[lolalola]

 

Remember that if he's kept your monitors dry he still could have drenched the house mix without you knowing! I'd say something like this: "We need a lot of reverb on the vocals in the house mix for an ambient effect. It should sound like this," and then give him a well-known point of comparison (don't expect him to know My Bloody Valentine, what if he's a metalhead?) or have a way to play him a clip of your recordings. Then I'd say: "Verb in the monitors would be great if it's possible, but keep them as dry as they need to be for us to hear ourselves clearly."

 

 

Yeah - I like that idea ... it would be handy to have a little bit of reverb on the monitor vocal too. We've not had that before..... I've heard our singer at sound check from the audience's point of view, and there's invariably not as much reverb as I'd prefer.

[agedhorse]

Of course I work at a much higher level than most of these small club type gigs are, but when I happen to hear a self-styled artsy band that drenches themselves in vocals, it sounds to me like they are trying to hide something, that they are "playing with themselves", and clueless as to how the sloppy verb fits into the context of a club environment from the audience perspective.

 

I can't think of a time where I could have ever gotten away with "swimming in verb" vocals. It's not fair to an audience who paid to be there. Again, this is for bands selling tickets for real money and in bigger venues, but I think it's worth you pondering. Not seeing bands with swimming vocals in larger venues that pay real money... might be a pattern in this eh?

 

Also, unless the sound guy has a dry channel in addition to the Vocal/FX channel he sends you, he will be severely limited in the levels of vocal he can get in the monitors due to severe gain before feedback limitations that verb effects impose. Verbs are regenerated and filtered multi-tapped delays and the resulting envelope includes dynamic peaks and valleys as the amplitudes and phases change, are summed and resummed. This reduces system stability of any closed loop feedback type system (which a monitor system is).

 

Just giving you some information from experience.

[335BoB]

I heard a band about a month ago with a LOT of reverb in the vocals. It seemed obvious to me that this was at the request of the "older" lead singer. (btw I'm no spring chicken) This was a house sytem with a fairly young looking soundman. (I was wondering if he had ever heard recordings with that kind of reverb EVER)

 

I understand what the singer was shooting for. As an audience participant it was horrible. The overall sound would have sounded SO much better with just a little less reverb (with still enough reverb to hear the reverb) Just a listener perspective I thought I'd throw out there.

[lolalola]

 

Of course I work at a much higher level than most of these small club type gigs are, but when I happen to hear a self-styled artsy band that drenches themselves in vocals, it sounds to me like they are trying to hide something, that they are "playing with themselves", and clueless as to how the sloppy verb fits into the context of a club environment from the audience perspective. I can't think of a time where I could have ever gotten away with "swimming in verb" vocals. It's not fair to an audience who paid to be there. Again, this is for bands selling tickets for real money and in bigger venues, but I think it's worth you pondering. Not seeing bands with swimming vocals in larger venues that pay real money... might be a pattern in this eh?

 

 

So we won't become a bigger band if we gig in this way? I'm fine with that. We're not "hiding" from anything, we just don't want to or aspire to sound like Coldplay. "Playing with ourselves" and "clueless" we might be, sure.

[soulvillemusic]

 

So we won't become a bigger band if we gig in this way? I'm fine with that. We're not "hiding" from anything, we just don't want to or aspire to sound like Coldplay. "Playing with ourselves" and "clueless" we might be, sure.

 

 

Lolalola - I'm a singer who has been playing live actively for 20+ years and with this latest cover band I'm in I'm slowing learning to be a sound guy. While I've been in several original bands we were more straightforward and never had to worry about certain types of effects on our songs BUT I can understand a band that does have that sound on a record wanting it live. The issue that I think some of the guys are trying to point out is effects that may sound great on a recording may also not be possible in a live setting, especially when trying to do it yourself. I know my way around a studio and I thought that would translate to running live sound when I started doing it. While knowing how effects work and knowing my way around a mixer was certainly helpful I was completely unprepared for all the variables encountered in live sound. The biggest variable is the room.

 

There are some room we play where there is no reverb on ANYTHING. Some rooms are so large and reflective that even full of people they make the band sound like there's a ton of reverb being run when there's not. Adding a bunch of reverb in this situation means a serious loss in intelligibility of vocals and a washing out of instruments. The opposite of this is an outdoor gig. Sometimes I'm surprised at how much effects I have to dial in at an outdoor gig just to hear them. Outdoors is more like the recording studio because there are no reflections happening so adding in effects becomes more important.

 

Since the FOH sound can vary so much from room to room it's always best IMO to allow the soundman to deal with the vocal effects because he or she will be mixing to the room. As someone else mentioned, you can certainly talk to the sound engineer about what you want your effects to sound like and they will know how to give you that within the room you are playing. Just trying to run a ton of reverb on the vocals from the stage when you can't hear it out front could certainly result in a situation where the vocals are completely washed out and unintelligible. I've been playing long enough to know that effects can be overused and ruin the sound of a live show....especially in a small club setting where the room might be reflective.

 

Assuming you are an original band and will typically be playing clubs with installed sound and house engineers I would always let them deal with the effects because I can promise you it will sound better. If you play gigs with your own PA then pay attention to the room by doing soundchecks while listening to the out front sound. If you have a processor that allows you to adjust reverb parameters you will also learn that pre-delay can help quite a bit. I think a lot of the TC Helicon Voicelive 2 factory pre-sets have quite a bit of pre-delay dialed in to help with the vocal intelligibility while still allowing the reverb to be present.

 

As a singer I never run verb in my monitors. I have been trying in ears and I actually want a little reverb in that monitoring setup because it's so dry and unnatural sounding, but with a normal wedge I don't think it's a great idea. To easiest way to sing is to hear yourself dry.

 

I hope this advice helps a bit. It's always tough trying to get what was on a recording in a live setting because it's sometimes just not possible to make it work. Be patient and keep working on it. Good luck!

[lolalola]

Thanks Soulville - lots of nice advice in there, and not so aggressive as another poster here too! We've a gig coming up in January, so I'm going to try to communicate as much as possible with the sound guy there.

[agedhorse]

Soulville captured my thoughts in perhaps a more newbie-musician friendly way.

 

Because I typically works larger and more national touring type acts, when I do lower level acts I usually find one of two approaches. The first is that the band "knows it all" already, and they are so focused in what they THINK they know that the miss the entire big picture and in the process they tend to be the ones who fall flat on their faces. The other folks are the ones who recognize an opportunity to step up and engoy a professional experience where they don't have to worry about what it sounds like out front because the know it will be better than they have ever experienced. They also recognize that their monitor experience is beyond anything they have experienced. They become enthusiastic and willing participants who want to learn from the experience, work with me rather than against me, and enjoy the gig. Those also tend to be the guys who have the best gig of their lives (at least to that point) and the most fun. This IS a part of the audience experience. They also seem to be the bands that over time improve and start playing the better places.

 

I am trying to provide some insight into how the world works, the attitudes tend to predict pretty accurately the likely success that the bands may have... almost independant of the talent. It's of course your choice to learn from this or not. There are plenty of others, including the thousands of lurkers here who will use this information too.

[lolalola]

 

Soulville captured my thoughts in perhaps a more newbie-musician friendly way. Because I typically works larger and more national touring type acts, when I do lower level acts I usually find one of two approaches. The first is that the band "knows it all" already, and they are so focused in what they THINK they know that the miss the entire big picture and in the process they tend to be the ones who fall flat on their faces. The other folks are the ones who recognize an opportunity to step up and engoy a professional experience where they don't have to worry about what it sounds like out front because the know it will be better than they have ever experienced. They also recognize that their monitor experience is beyond anything they have experienced. They become enthusiastic and willing participants who want to learn from the experience, work with me rather than against me, and enjoy the gig. Those also tend to be the guys who have the best gig of their lives (at least to that point) and the most fun. This IS a part of the audience experience. They also seem to be the bands that over time improve and start playing the better places. I am trying to provide some insight into how the world works, the attitudes tend to predict pretty accurately the likely success that the bands may have... almost independant of the talent. It's of course your choice to learn from this or not. There are plenty of others, including the thousands of lurkers here who will use this information too.

 

 

We don't have our own sound guy to come to each and every gig we play. That's why I'd prefer to have as much hands-on knowledge as possible to get our sound how WE want it. Generally the FOH guy couldn't give a damn about what we want. What do you therefore suggest to me?

[agedhorse]

 

We don't have our own sound guy to come to each and every gig we play. That's why I'd prefer to have as much hands-on knowledge as possible to get our sound how WE want it. Generally the FOH guy couldn't give a damn about what we want. What do you therefore suggest to me?

 

 

Most FOH guys I know want to get you the BEST possible FOH sound possible, and will try to accomplish what you want and fit it into the room the best they can without causing other worse problems. I suggest that you talk nicely with the FOH guy and help him understand what you are trying to accomplish, and also try to understand that some things just won't work well (like swimming reverb in loud monitors) so that your goals are reasonable and achievable. If you "stubborn-up" to an unrealistic or unreasonable request then the real world will dictate your results. The sound guy can be your best friend or your worst enemy, so remember this when formulating your approach.

[6Imzadi]

We don't have our own sound guy to come to each and every gig we play. That's why I'd prefer to have as much hands-on knowledge as possible to get our sound how WE want it. Generally the FOH guy couldn't give a damn about what we want. What do you therefore suggest to me?

 

I would suggest is that you have an open mind about what your expectations are on the reverb you desire.

 

Agedhorse and soulvillemusic are both right in what they are saying. You may not realize this yet. Maybe you could put a clip up that would be representative of "your sound". We could then determine if what was done in the studio is attainable live. There are centuries of experience or more here to relay to you. Take it, it's given freely and usually is right on the money.

 

[rodclement]

I always found it to be great to go over the set list with the sound tech, have a copy for him with notes etc., treat him with respect and he will pay back by making you sound great! Treat him with content and he may hit the "{censored}" buttom on you!

 

Rod