Members tim_7string Posted February 11, 2011 Members Share Posted February 11, 2011 I currently have a powered mixer (Yamaha EMX512SC) with two 15" mains (Yamaha S115V) and two 12" monitors (Yamaha SM12V). I would like to start out with one active subwoofer for now, then add another one in the near future. In a previous thread I made, it was suggested that I get an unpowered sub plus power amp instead (one that has an internal crossover to use with the sub and the mains). I know mixing powered and unpowered can be done, as bassred has posted before and I noticed that his band has similar equipment to mine. They use Samson powered subs alongside Yamaha S115V tops and a power amp. Of course, they do have a passive mixer and not a powered one like I have. I'm guessing that an active or passive crossover will be involved somewhere? Is it worth doing things this way or would it be easier to keep everything passive speakers with separate amps? Or should I simply upgrade my mixer to a 'real' one, then try to implement the mixture of powered and unpowered speakers that I'm describing? A description of our type of music: I have a rock band that plays classic and modern songs, ranging from classic country-rock and 50s songs all the way up to stuff like Nirvana and The White Stripes. I would like the subwoofer to sound halfway decent enough to dance to, but it doesn't have to shake the walls. P.S. As a side note, what do people here think of the Yamaha MSR800 powered subwoofer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DaBender Posted February 11, 2011 Members Share Posted February 11, 2011 IMO, Yamaha made a huge step backwards with those EMX series powered mixers when they eliminated the "power amp in" jacks. With other powered mixers, including the older Yammies, you could feed your unpowered mix out to a crossover then take the low frequencies out of the crossover into either a powered sub or power amp and passive sub and take the mid/high frequencies back into the powered mixer for your mains/tops. This relieves the powered mixer from attempting to reproduce the lower frequencies, which typically require a lot more power than the higher frequencies and won't be reproduced well by your mains anyway. After all, that's why you added the sub(s)! So, in your case all you can do is send full range to the tops from the powered mixer and reinforce the low frequencies with a powered sub or whatever. You may even have a "sub out" jack that already performs crossing for the sub for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vinny D Posted February 11, 2011 Members Share Posted February 11, 2011 My small system is a active sub (Yorkville LS801P) with passive tops and monitors (RCF ART325i & Yamaha CM15V) I do use a cheap Peavey 2-way crossover for the mains, the tops and monitors are powered from a QSC PLX3002 (1-ch. tops, 1-ch Mons.) Great sounding rig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DaBender Posted February 11, 2011 Members Share Posted February 11, 2011 BTW, your thread topic doesn't really explain the extent of what you appear to be asking. Mixing active and powered is easy as Vinnie has demonstrated. Using your powered mixer for half the main signal, not so much. Your cheapest upgrade path right now might be something like - 1) feed a filtered powered subwoofer such as the Proel Flash 15A from your main out jacks, using the Yamaha amps for tops (unfiltered) and monitors. 2) get a power amp for your tops and simply stop using the Yammi mains amp. Continue using the Yammi monitor amp. If the amp you get in #2 has independently selectable filters such as the Yamaha P series amps, you can eventually use half of it for your tops (filtered) and the other half for the monitors (unfiltered). 3) You can then replace the EMX with an unpowered desk, as you have everything else. Either sell the EMX or use it for rehearsal and/or a backup piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tim_7string Posted February 11, 2011 Author Members Share Posted February 11, 2011 Nice rig, Vinny D! BTW, your thread topic doesn't really explain the extent of what you appear to be asking. Mixing active and powered is easy as Vinnie has demonstrated. Using your powered mixer for half the main signal, not so much. Your cheapest upgrade path right now might be something like - 1) feed a filtered powered subwoofer such as the Proel Flash 15A from your main out jacks, using the Yamaha amps for tops (unfiltered) and monitors. 2) get a power amp for your tops and simply stop using the Yammi mains amp. Continue using the Yammi monitor amp. If the amp you get in #2 has independently selectable filters such as the Yamaha P series amps, you can eventually use half of it for your tops (filtered) and the other half for the monitors (unfiltered). 3) You can then replace the EMX with an unpowered desk, as you have everything else. Either sell the EMX or use it for rehearsal and/or a backup piece. You had me until you mention "filtered" and "unfiltered." Are you referring to HPFs or something else on the power amp itself (so you can send one channel to a subwoofer, the other to the mains)? And does the Proel Flash 15A have a filtered option built into the active subwoofer itself? Or do I need a crossover to accomplish this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vinny D Posted February 11, 2011 Members Share Posted February 11, 2011 I forgot to mention there is actually an active monitor in that pic also, a EV SXa250.Great sounding cab by the way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted February 11, 2011 Members Share Posted February 11, 2011 I'm of the belief that when you're faced with thsi situation you start selling or retiring the components that don't work instead of trying to stuff them in the wrong hole. Mixing powered and unpowered is done all the time but mixing a powered mixer that's intended for simple set-ups, with a powered sub can get tricky. You'll need to cross your signal; mid/high to your tops and lows to your sub. You'll probably want a better EQ once you get into using sub, and you'll probably want a better mixer. Once in a while you can just add a powered sub that has an internal crossover, go full range to your tops and miracles of miracles it all works out. I guess you could try that first, and then if it didn't work, decide if you're going to go unpowered mixer with power amps or all "active"/powered speakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DaBender Posted February 11, 2011 Members Share Posted February 11, 2011 You had me until you mention "filtered" and "unfiltered." Are you referring to HPFs or something else on the power amp itself (so you can send one channel to a subwoofer, the other to the mains)? And does the Proel Flash 15A have a filtered option built into the active subwoofer itself? Or do I need a crossover to accomplish this? Yes, I was using the term "filtered" to represent "crossed over". Really, eqs, crossovers, speakers and amps are all just different things that are packaged in different combinations nowadays. Many amps have build in crossovers. Some, like the QSC GX series, apply to both channels when engaged - 1 channel will process the highs and the other the lows. Other amps are more flexible such as the Yamaha P series and the Peavey IPR series. You can use one channel for full range such as monitors and the other passing only highs for your top boxes or only lows for your sub. I only mentioned the Proel because it has been highly rated as a "bang for your buck" solution by some respected forum members and it does have a pretty rich feature set - I believe it lets you pass through either a full range signal or just your highs depending on your needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members badhabit Posted February 12, 2011 Members Share Posted February 12, 2011 You can run a line out from your powered mixer to a crossover, then to a powered sub. However, you still would be sending the full bandwidth to the mid/high uppers, and that's not ideal. I attempted to use the Yamaha mixer main outs to a crossover, then to an amp and then to passive FOH's, including subs. It sorta worked but not that well. The limits of the mixer couldn't dial out the crap rumble to the subs. You really need a better mixer to handle subs, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dookietwo Posted February 12, 2011 Members Share Posted February 12, 2011 Looking at your mixer, http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/products/mixers/emx512sc/photos.html the Main L/R outs are after the EQ section and after the master volume knob. Sad that there is no pan knob on the desk... I'm guessing your using the Main/Monitor switch to run one amp in the mixer for your mains and one for your monitor system. As others have stated you could use the Main out (mono to start) and go to a power amp that has a built in crossover in it. Something like a QSC GX5 or GX7 or a Peavey IPR 3000 comes to mind. Because the eq and the master volume knob come before the L/R outs you could use the eq and master as you do now. You could pick up a sub or two and be good to go. There were powered subs that had amps in them for the tops as well but I haven't seen many out lately. I remember peavey had one. Something like this but no top speakers were included. This could work for your setup depending on how loud you need to be. http://aa.peavey.com/pasystems/TriFlexII.cfm http://www.instrumentpro.com/P-PEA03008830?source=froogle There are others but I'd have to look to find them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted February 12, 2011 Members Share Posted February 12, 2011 Nice rig, Vinny D! You had me until you mention "filtered" and "unfiltered." Are you referring to HPFs or something else on the power amp itself (so you can send one channel to a subwoofer, the other to the mains)? And does the Proel Flash 15A have a filtered option built into the active subwoofer itself? Or do I need a crossover to accomplish this? Yes, the Proels have the option of the "out" being filtered or straight-thru. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tim_7string Posted February 12, 2011 Author Members Share Posted February 12, 2011 Yes, the Proels have the option of the "out" being filtered or straight-thru. Excellent. I'll probably get one of those to start with then. Side note: I guess nobody likes the Yamaha MSR800 powered sub? I've seen reviews on it that were not favorable. Just wondered if anyone had experience with it here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tim_7string Posted March 9, 2011 Author Members Share Posted March 9, 2011 Update: After weighing the pros and cons of a powered sub vs. a passive sub/power amp combination, I decided to follow agedhorse's advice after all (I'm betting he will enjoy that ) and got a Yamaha SW118V passive subwoofer. Just gotta buy a QSC GX series power amp now and I'm all set for gigging! Question: Would it be better to get the higher-powered QSC GX-5 (500 watts per channel) over the QSC GX-3 (300 watts per channel)? It looks like the sub handles around 600 watts program. I would be running one channel for the lone subwoofer and the other channel would run the mains (daisy-chained). I don't want to be underpowered but I don't want to blow speakers either. If the GX-5 is okay for the sub and (daisy-chained) mains, the GX-3 would probably be perfect to buy in the future for the monitors (350 watts program, close to the 300 watts per channel of the GX-3), right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 9, 2011 Members Share Posted March 9, 2011 Frankly with that sub the GX-3 is probably a better choice as the driver is roughly 300-350 watts RMS. The GX-5 does not have a HPF so you would absolutely need one (maybe you have on on your eq) if you were thinking about driving the box very hard at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tim_7string Posted March 11, 2011 Author Members Share Posted March 11, 2011 Cool. I will get the GX-3 then and save $100 to boot (from the price of the GX-5). Thanks again for the advice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.