Members Chaff67 Posted February 16, 2011 Members Share Posted February 16, 2011 I am having trouble getting a good tone for the violin player in our praise band. His setup is a pickup on the violin through a Roland AC60. Coming out of his amp the sound is fine. Coming through the board he sounds fine when the overall volume is low (quieter songs), but when the full band is playing his tone doesn't sound the same. At first it was a honky sound. So I inserted a 15 band EQ and cut at 1khz. That took the honk out, but then it was sounding harsh and a little shrill. So I boosted some around 250Hz. This helped with the harshness, but the overall tone still doesn't sound good to me. The best way I can describe the sound is lifeless. Are there any tips or tricks to bringing the life back to his sound at these higher volume levels? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members twostone Posted February 16, 2011 Members Share Posted February 16, 2011 Are you micing the Roland cab or running a DI box? If your micing the cab what mic are you using? Sometimes using a different mic can make a world of different on tone quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chaff67 Posted February 16, 2011 Author Members Share Posted February 16, 2011 Sorry, I meant to mention he is going out direct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Coaster Posted February 16, 2011 Members Share Posted February 16, 2011 you could try a short plate, i'd start around 0.5 to 0.8 seconds. this can add body to the sound without sounding like reverb and can cut harshness. i use this a lot to cut down direct signals. it may seem like a strange concept to you at first but do try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chaff67 Posted February 16, 2011 Author Members Share Posted February 16, 2011 I will give that a try, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 16, 2011 Members Share Posted February 16, 2011 What is he using for a pickup? If it's a small dimension piezo crystal, or a piezo crystal saddle/bridge pick-up, the rising response of the pickup can cause edginess. Try cutting about 3dB at 1.6kHz gradually increasing until you get to -6dB at 5kHz and see if this doesn't sound better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members twostone Posted February 16, 2011 Members Share Posted February 16, 2011 Have you tried micing the cab? that might help bring some some color to the sound so you don't have the dullness. I'm know expert by any means but I do know this from recording bass in my home studio rig. I use a DI box and Audix D4 mic on the bass cab and blend the 2 together and I got beautiful bass sound I'm looking for. Straight DI bass is cool, but adding a mic in there even cooler IME. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chaff67 Posted February 16, 2011 Author Members Share Posted February 16, 2011 I need to find out about the pickup, and will try the cut at 1.6Khz to 5Khz. Thanks agedhorse. I haven't tried mic'ng the cab. I use the Roland AC90 (big brother to the AC60) on my acoustic (Ovation 1868 Elite) going out straight DI and it sounds great through the PA. I know it's 2 totaly different instruments, but didn't think there would be such a difference. If the short plate and agedhorses advice doesn't work, I will give this a try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 16, 2011 Members Share Posted February 16, 2011 There will be HUGE differences. That's why they call one a violin and the other a guitar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rezrover Posted February 16, 2011 Members Share Posted February 16, 2011 Rimshot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chaff67 Posted February 16, 2011 Author Members Share Posted February 16, 2011 I should have seen that coming... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 16, 2011 Members Share Posted February 16, 2011 Taa-daa! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members twostone Posted February 16, 2011 Members Share Posted February 16, 2011 There will be HUGE differences. That's why they call one a violin and the other a guitar Well somebody should have told that to Jimmy Page because I guess he didn't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted February 16, 2011 Members Share Posted February 16, 2011 Violins in rock bands, brings back some bad memories - I like violin, it's just getting them loud that can be tricky. Is the violin any good, is the pick-up any good? I seem to recall that the violin players I knew that had success in loud situations used dedicated electric violins or very good PUPs, suited to that purpose. Also if you're going direct to the board there isn't any preamp for the violin. Just recently I took a signal from a violin with a pick-up and went straight into a MixWiz - sounded horrible. It was a one off jam situation so I just let it slide but otherwise I would have suggested the person in question come up with a better system. For sure, try agedhorse's suggestions, but you might also check to make sure you're not trying to make gold from mud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Coaster Posted February 17, 2011 Members Share Posted February 17, 2011 i have also found that having adequate compression available is a big help to limit the window of "intelligibility/rip your face off". ya know, fer when they tend to get nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Chinese Posted February 17, 2011 Members Share Posted February 17, 2011 I mixed a fantastic Band Sat eve called Vokab Kompany. They have a violinist, who absolutely shreds... His tone was Awesome. I took a feed directly from his amp. I will fins out what his PU & amp were. T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 17, 2011 Members Share Posted February 17, 2011 Since violin piezo pickups are very small, a real high impedance (between 500k and 1M) is necessary to get rid of the bright quack that will peel your hair back. Active DI is the best choice in this case. I just did 2 acts in 2 weeks w/ violin as the lead instrument... Bijan Mortazavi, and David Garrett. Both were phenominal players with killer sounding instruments. Bijan used a pick-up system and David used a small condenser, something like a Countryman or DPA... didn't get a chance to see what it was. Both had killer sounding rigs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rezrover Posted February 17, 2011 Members Share Posted February 17, 2011 I forgot I mixed a violin last year. The guy had a 1/4 inch plug and I plugged it into the passive DI I got from Audiopile, went right into the Mixwiz, no FX and it sounded fine. Maybe tweek the EQ a little but he only used it for one song(guess which one). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chaff67 Posted February 17, 2011 Author Members Share Posted February 17, 2011 Is the violin any good, is the pick-up any good? I seem to recall that the violin players I knew that had success in loud situations used dedicated electric violins or very good PUPs, suited to that purpose. Yes violin and pickup is good quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chaff67 Posted February 17, 2011 Author Members Share Posted February 17, 2011 Since violin piezo pickups are very small, a real high impedance (between 500k and 1M) is necessary to get rid of the bright quack that will peel your hair back. Active DI is the best choice in this case. Since he is going into the amp then going direct out from the amp where would the active DI go, between viloin and amp or after amp before the mixer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted February 17, 2011 Members Share Posted February 17, 2011 I always ask the player if they are using an amp if they like the sound, if so then I mic the amp. A passive DI can change the tone of the violin (not always) and the sound of just the pickup can be harsh. The amp is a nice buffer and the house will hear what the player hears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Redbassman86 Posted February 17, 2011 Members Share Posted February 17, 2011 I do fiddle EVERY week working at a Celtic venue, and IME: Violin pickups are great, or they are awful. There is very little middle of the road. Yes, you CAN put a bandaid on it, but if it is awful, I would mic the fiddle with a SDC and give the player a monitor, way better than compromising the sound. That being said, if in your situation you CAN compromise, they you can EQ it into acceptability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Reson8tor Posted February 17, 2011 Members Share Posted February 17, 2011 My wife usually plays standard, acoustic violin in our Celtic bands through a DPA 4099 clip-on mic because our stage volume is low. Last weekend, she bought a second-hand Zeta solidbody electric violin, just for grins, because the price was right. If you want something that sounds pretty close to a violin at loud stage volumes, this is the way to go (IMO). Zero feedback, zero hassle, plays like butter and looks interesting as a stage instrument. Used electric violins are not that hard to find at a good price, since it's not the kind of thing that works in every situation, and some people just try it and bail out. I will always go for real acoustic violin tone through a good mic setup, where the situation is appropriate for it. For loud stages, get a solidbody electric violin and wail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chaff67 Posted February 17, 2011 Author Members Share Posted February 17, 2011 To Reson8tor: He owned an electric violin years ago and did not like it, sold it shortly after. So I'm not sure how open he would be to that. To Unalaska: He is going in the amp and coming and going through the XLR line out (not the DI out)of the amp, so he is getting the amp sound to the board. And the sound is good, when at the low volumes. So do you think that mic'ing would make the difference at the higher volume? To Redbassman86: Have you had experience where the pickup sounds great at one volume level then not as good at another? This is the issue. I am not sure what p'up he is using, but he said that when he went to the music store to purchase he bought the best one recommended by the staff. Unfortunately it will be another week and a half until I can try all this great advice (we have services every other week currently). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members twostone Posted February 17, 2011 Members Share Posted February 17, 2011 To Reson8tor: He owned an electric violin years ago and did not like it, sold it shortly after. So I'm not sure how open he would be to that. To Unalaska: He is going in the amp and coming and going through the XLR line out (not the DI out)of the amp, so he is getting the amp sound to the board. And the sound is good, when at the low volumes. So do you think that mic'ing would make the difference at the higher volume? To Redbassman86: Have you had experience where the pickup sounds great at one volume level then not as good at another? This is the issue. I am not sure what p'up he is using, but he said that when he went to the music store to purchase he bought the best one recommended by the staff.Unfortunately it will be another week and a half until I can try all this great advice (we have services every other week currently). So basically your saying your using the amps built in DI?If that's the case, maybe pickup a countryman DI which is known as the Nashville's standard of DI boxes for such instrument as violins,mandolins, ect.... Then use it in between the amp and mixer. If you can't get a good sound out of that. Then it's gotta be the PU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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