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Carl Jung: “Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate.”


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I think it relates to religion foremost.

 

The Unconscious mind controlling the conscious mind.

 

 

I think he's saying that there can be underlying urges, fears, etc. that can pretty much dictate how a person acts, behaves, and how they view what they experience. Until they have one way or another been made aware of the undercurrents they will be at their mercy, and will conclude that some other force has been at work.

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I like my urges, and am not going to give them up ;)

 

They bring me pleasure, and pleasure makes for a worthy life.

 

Insights and incites by Notes

 

Ooh, a hedonist. Well maybe you don't have to give them up. Maybe it's enough to simply recognize when an urge is present and is having it's effect.

 

I've had an urge or two. It's one thing to entertain an urge and another to be blindly led around by the nose or some other part of the body by one. :)

 

Pleasure may make your life worthwhile, but I don't think it is the only measure of a worthy existence.

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For some reason, Jung's quote sounds Freudian to me. But I'm neither a Psychiatrist, a Philosopher, or educated. It seems easy to say something was fated to happen, after it has happened. I think "Hindsight is 20/20" is a much more profound quote...But I don't know who said it previous to my Father.

 

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Ooh, a hedonist. Well maybe you don't have to give them up. Maybe it's enough to simply recognize when an urge is present and is having it's effect.

 

I've had an urge or two. It's one thing to entertain an urge and another to be blindly led around by the nose or some other part of the body by one. :)

 

Pleasure may make your life worthwhile, but I don't think it is the only measure of a worthy existence.

 

I disagree. I think a life of harmless to others pleasure is the most worthy existence of all. I don't need to have my name go on as long as Pliny or buy a diamond pinky ring, my drives are for pleasant experiences, it's my bliss, and as the philosopher Joseph Campbell advised, I follow my bliss.

 

I think a life of pleasure is a successful life. Would I rather be stressed or miserable but make more money? No.

 

Most of what we do is for selfish reasons. It gave Mother Theresa pleasure to help the poor. That I'm sure of.

 

I think some people think they are doing something for other people, when really, they are doing it mostly for themselves AND the benefit of other people. The hero who tackled the Waffle House shooter was doing it to save his own life, and others benefited. The pilot who landed the plane with the blown up engine did it to save her own life and the others benefited. Even the suicide bombers did it for selfish reasons, as they believed they were helping something they thought was more important than their life

 

It gives me pleasure to send money to support the Space Coast Symphony Orchestra, trim the hedge of my neighbor, help a stranded motorist, or to give a unit of my blood at the blood bank every few months. I could fool myself and say it's for the good of whatever, but I do it because it makes ME feel good. Even something as little as holding a door open for someone who has impaired mobility makes me feel good when I get their smile. Helping another save his boat or car at the launch ramp also made me feel good. It's selfish if I get pleasure from it.

 

I play music because it makes me feel good. I have sex and eat food because it makes me feel good. I take long walks on the beach because I like it. I take vacations to foreign (to me) lands because I enjoy it. I live in Florida because I like the climate. I treat my wife well because the pleasure I give her is returned to me tenfold. On our weekly marina gig, I give the dockside cat a little treat because I like the cat liking me.

 

I don't think I have the right to let my pleasure deny another person's rights so for example: as much as my sex drive might desire that good looking female, I will neither force myself on her nor hurt my wife by trying to seduce her. I don't practice my music during hours that would annoy my neighbors and they know that if I'm bothering them that they should let me know. Again, that's selfish, I like having my neighbors as my friends, it makes me happy.

 

In other words, I live a life of pleasure but I basically "Do unto others" which is a much older philosophy than modern religions.

 

I could have made a lot more money as an electronics engineer, I was trained for that and held the job for a couple of years. But music gives me more pleasure so I followed my bliss, and I have no regrets.

 

I eat the food I like, and balance that with what is healthy for me so I can enjoy it longer (barring stepping on a metaphoric land mine).

 

I am controlled by my drives but tempered by my responsibilities in society.

 

Right now I'm living a life doing music and nothing but music. I've played on concert stages and been treated as a peer with some of the most famous musicians of the day and I'm still gigging to smaller but very, very appreciative audiences. I've gigged on cruise ships, 5 star hotels, hole-in-the-war bars, singles clubs, yacht clubs, and just about anywhere else a musician can gig.

 

I've traveled the world, had intimate relations with beautiful females and ended up married to the best one of all, seen active volcanoes, walked on the Great Wall of China, played sax in China too, seen the paintings in the Prado, Ufizzi, Met, Rijksmuseum, Tate, British, etc., heard musicians play their own music in Morocco, Andalusia, Jamaica, China, and elsewhere. I've heard most of the greatest symphony orchestras in the world, many in their own halls and in their own countries and I could keep on listing all the things that have given me pleasure. And I'm sure most people have their list too.

 

I wake up every day and think how lucky I am to be living this life.

 

And when this life is over, and I can look back and say, "I enjoyed it immensely" on my death bed I'll believe my life was a success.

 

Notes

 

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I disagree. I think a life of harmless to others pleasure is the most worthy existence of all. I don't need to have my name go on as long as Pliny or buy a diamond pinky ring, my drives are for pleasant experiences, it's my bliss, and as the philosopher Joseph Campbell advised, I follow my bliss.

 

I think a life of pleasure is a successful life. Would I rather be stressed or miserable but make more money? No.

 

Most of what we do is for selfish reasons. It gave Mother Theresa pleasure to help the poor. That I'm sure of.

 

I think some people think they are doing something for other people, when really, they are doing it mostly for themselves AND the benefit of other people. The hero who tackled the Waffle House shooter was doing it to save his own life, and others benefited. The pilot who landed the plane with the blown up engine did it to save her own life and the others benefited. Even the suicide bombers did it for selfish reasons, as they believed they were helping something they thought was more important than their life

 

It gives me pleasure to send money to support the Space Coast Symphony Orchestra, trim the hedge of my neighbor, help a stranded motorist, or to give a unit of my blood at the blood bank every few months. I could fool myself and say it's for the good of whatever, but I do it because it makes ME feel good. Even something as little as holding a door open for someone who has impaired mobility makes me feel good when I get their smile. Helping another save his boat or car at the launch ramp also made me feel good. It's selfish if I get pleasure from it.

 

I play music because it makes me feel good. I have sex and eat food because it makes me feel good. I take long walks on the beach because I like it. I take vacations to foreign (to me) lands because I enjoy it. I live in Florida because I like the climate. I treat my wife well because the pleasure I give her is returned to me tenfold. On our weekly marina gig, I give the dockside cat a little treat because I like the cat liking me.

 

I don't think I have the right to let my pleasure deny another person's rights so for example: as much as my sex drive might desire that good looking female, I will neither force myself on her nor hurt my wife by trying to seduce her. I don't practice my music during hours that would annoy my neighbors and they know that if I'm bothering them that they should let me know. Again, that's selfish, I like having my neighbors as my friends, it makes me happy.

 

In other words, I live a life of pleasure but I basically "Do unto others" which is a much older philosophy than modern religions.

 

I could have made a lot more money as an electronics engineer, I was trained for that and held the job for a couple of years. But music gives me more pleasure so I followed my bliss, and I have no regrets.

 

I eat the food I like, and balance that with what is healthy for me so I can enjoy it longer (barring stepping on a metaphoric land mine).

 

I am controlled by my drives but tempered by my responsibilities in society.

 

Right now I'm living a life doing music and nothing but music. I've played on concert stages and been treated as a peer with some of the most famous musicians of the day and I'm still gigging to smaller but very, very appreciative audiences. I've gigged on cruise ships, 5 star hotels, hole-in-the-war bars, singles clubs, yacht clubs, and just about anywhere else a musician can gig.

 

I've traveled the world, had intimate relations with beautiful females and ended up married to the best one of all, seen active volcanoes, walked on the Great Wall of China, played sax in China too, seen the paintings in the Prado, Ufizzi, Met, Rijksmuseum, Tate, British, etc., heard musicians play their own music in Morocco, Andalusia, Jamaica, China, and elsewhere. I've heard most of the greatest symphony orchestras in the world, many in their own halls and in their own countries and I could keep on listing all the things that have given me pleasure. And I'm sure most people have their list too.

 

I wake up every day and think how lucky I am to be living this life.

 

And when this life is over, and I can look back and say, "I enjoyed it immensely" on my death bed I'll believe my life was a success.

 

Notes

 

Well, Notes, that's a good bit more fleshed out than your opener. From a tease to a treatise.

 

Not to mince words, but I consider pleasure as a more immediate sensation... the type that comes from feeling the breeze on one's skin, goosebumps from great music. I should imagine though people do all kinds of things that aren't pleasurable in the immediate sense necessarily but they then gain satisfaction from that later bleeds into some level of pleasure. Yes, I can easily imagine that. I've certainly played some music that gave me no pleasure in the moment or at any point along the way, but perhaps allowed for some satisfaction. I got my paycheck, maybe the audience seemed pleased and I found that satisfying, maybe I was simply satisfied to have made it through without having screwed up and there was some pleasure on another level from that. OK.

 

I seriously doubt though if Mother Theresa found it pleasurable in the immediate sense of the word to see starving, dying babies with distended bellies and flies all over them, with the smell of sewage, infection and death all about. But their must have been satisfaction on some level knowing that she was doing the right thing by her religion, her conscience and heart. And at the end of her life she may then have been pleased that she had done right by those considerations.

 

I can think of numerous instances where people do things that aren't particularly pleasurable or are outright disagreeable because it's what needs to be done. There is then perhaps satisfaction in having done so and eventually maybe even pleasure. Pleasure by a much broader definition and a far cry from the fulfillment of some gruntish urge.

 

 

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Perhaps the difference is our interpretation of pleasure. Looking in "The Free Dictionary" there are plenty of variances in the term https://www.thefreedictionary.com/pleasure

 

I see it more as "enjoyment or satisfaction derived from something that is to one's liking; gratification; delight" than the more instant gratification although there is nothing wrong with the pleasure of instant gratification..

 

I see a lot of pleasure as tension and release.

 

I might struggle over learning something (tension) and when I get it receive great pleasure (release). And all the time I'm struggling, I'm looking forward to that pleasure.

 

Hunger (tension), a great meal (release).

 

Sometimes the stronger and longer the tension is, the greater the release and the pleasure of that release. And it's more pleasurable to me than most instant gratification pleasures.

 

And I think Mother Theresa really enjoyed the release enough to make even the tension pleasurable.

 

And call me what you will, but I follow my bliss and believe I'm living a charmed life.

 

Insights and incites by Notes.

 

 

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I do think it's possible to expand one's consciousness into one's own subconscious -but only to a point. But I don't see this necessarily as a way to sort of wrestle control of your life from the subconscious. Self-knowledge has immense benefits for those willing to put the ego on the back burner for a while. However, self-knowledge sometimes does, sometimes doesn't, lead to self-control.

 

After all, my subconscious is me - just as much as my conscious thoughts are. There really is no autonomous "mind" that mans the controls of one's self, making objective decisions all by itself from some disembodied mental high castle. It seems rather silly to me to think of my own subconscious as if it were some force that subverts my will and robs me of choosing my destiny, etc. Surely the conscious and the unconscious are simply terms we use to analyze aspects of a complete person, and work together as part of a much larger overall system that makes up a "me". You certainly can't somehow self-evolve yourself into not needing the subconscious. If I have an item of faith in all this, I have some faith that the way we are put together is, if not perfect, pretty amazingly good and works most of the time just fine without meddling.

 

I have known various believers of various sorts that have an agenda for improving on nature through some set of ideas and/or techniques. I went through some hypno-therapy at one point decades ago, and the therapist was a true believer in the power of hypnosis to shape/cure/direct/purify/control, the unconscious so that all sorts of goodness would then flow somewhat automatically from deep inside and fix whatever behavioral problems one might have.

 

I got some value from the sessions, probably from just talking with someone sympathetic and knowledgeable about my issues. He did put me under, but, sorry to say, all my problems did not go poof :) Maybe that was because I didn't buy into his faith. I did learn a lot about achieving some deep mental/physical relaxation. The whole experience was still quite an eye-opener and made me realize just how much of what makes up ourselves and our behavior and decisions is at the unconscious level - rather humbling, really. Fearfully and wonderfully made, as the old verse goes.

 

nat

 

Edited by nat whilk II
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Thoughts?

#1 Carl Jung: “Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate.”

 

 

This is a silly aphorism.

 

1. The distinction between conscious & unconscious needs to be defined more clearly.

 

2. Not only that - subconscious might be a better word than unconscious.

(Of course, the quoted phrase may be a translation into English -- or a mistranslation.)

 

3. Even if I accept #1 & 2 -- which I don't -- why on earth would I accept that it directs my life?

 

That leads me to

 

4. Fate: Many people do not believe in fate. I'm not sure about it. But given the problems 1,2 & 3 above, this is not worth exploring any further AFAIC.

Edited by Etienne Rambert
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