chord forms

[senorblues]

Keyboard player . . . . I figure my best chance to introduce altered fifths to a guitar player who probably isn't used to them, is to encourage him to play chord forms that omit the fifth. I seem to remember a Robben Ford video on the subject but I can't find it. Surely there are other videos, books, etc. Any suggestions?

[daddymack]

why would you want to do that to some poor unsuspecting guitar player?

[senorblues]

I'm going to assume that a winking emoticon is implied in your response . . . . . .

 

The alternative is to play a dumbed down version of the song.

 

We shall know the breadth of your experience by the variety of V chords in your arsenal . . . . .

[Chordite]

I knew there was a reason why we have separate forums.

[senorblues]

Same reason we play in separate bands . . .

[badpenguin]

Yeah, there are craploads of chord voicings on a guitar, that don't have a 5th, since it's implied. But why teach someone to cheat, before they learn the proper rules first?

[senorblues]

It's not cheating. By omitting the fifth, you leave others to play a raised or lowered fifth - or not - without getting in the way. Now if the guitar player is solely responsible for the changes - no keys, no horn section - then by all means, play it, but there's a reason those voicings without fifths exist.

 

The same goes for extensions. Just because you hear a V7+5+9 doesn't mean you should always play all those notes.

[Grant Harding]

This thread is spot on. Almost every guitarist I know plays chords with too many notes in them. It just creates mess and unexpected dissonance/boundaries for a soloist.

 

I think it's because most of us are self taught and are used to strumming all 6 strings.

 

Edit: Plus we're often playing solo, so have to form complete musical ideas

[Mark Wein]

I've actually thought about this thread for a couple of days and I keep coming back to the idea that if you are playing music where these things matter, you should know enough harmony basic music theory and you should understand your fretboard well enough to play appropriate chords and not rely on stock voicings.

 

When I am playing jazz or any other music where the harmony starts getting a little more sophisticated the first note I drop out of chord voicings is the 5th. If it is a perfect 5th then we will hear it somewhere in the mix since it is pretty early on in the harmonic overtone series anyway. If it is an altered 5th it really depends on the density of the music going on around me. If I feel that the note is being appropriately covered in other instruments then I can still leave it out and play things as simple as just the 3rd and 7th's of the chords to definite the harmony at the most basic level. If its a smaller group and the full harmony isn't being represented like I feel it should be then I'll start adding things back in.

 

Just because a chart has a Bb7b9#11 doesn't mean that you need to play Bb D F Ab Cb and E - you can play as little as the D (3rd) and the Ab (m7th) and let the overall effect of everyone else playing at that moment in time fill in the rest. Or you can play more using your own discretion. When you just use stock voicings and don't bother to educated yourself in the theory that you need for your role in a particular group then thats where you run into problems like this.

 

The other thing to consider is that when I'm playing with a pianist and a bassist they are already banging the crap out of the essential chord tones. We really don't need me duplicating the root and the 5th of the chord if the bassist is most likely hitting those notes already in his part and if the pianist is altering chords with flat and sharp 9's and 5's then sometimes it's better if I stay out of his way as well. Ultimately you have to listen to the context you are playing in and season to taste

[daddymack]

This thread is spot on. Almost every guitarist I know plays chords with too many notes in them. It just creates mess and unexpected dissonance/boundaries for a soloist.

 

I think it's because most of us are self taught and are used to strumming all 6 strings.

 

Edit: Plus we're often playing solo, so have to form complete musical ideas

Jazz chord comping is both an art and a skill.

If you study the guitarists in the big band era, you will immediately notice that they are playing mainly triads that are primarily formed for melodic tracking, not fattening up an already potentially dense sonic platform. The more instruments playing, the less notes the polyphonic instruments should be playing. This does not preclude a guitarist actually fingering the full chord, but selectively playing the right notes at the right time within that chord is crucial.

The 'less is more' approach is generally better than overkill [except in ambient and some shoegaze] when working in a band larger than a trio. We forget sometimes to leave breathing room for the listener...the one person often overlooked in the process.

[senorblues]

I'd like to steer the discussion away from jazz. I'll be playing with some guys tonight and even though it's defined as a blues jam, I expect to sneak in some chord forms you might normally associate with jazz. I have had the experience of playing with rockers who don't know about altered 5ths, but what usually happens is they hear that their pentatonic scales sound better over a V+9+5 than the V7 bar chord they might hear from a rhythm guitar player. Also frees up the vocals for the same reason. Other comments have addressed other issues regarding the difference between power trios and larger formats, but for now, I just wanted to be able to refer the guitar player to a good source of chord forms that are clearly geared towards blues, rather than jazz . . . . assuming he's at all interested.

[Chordite]

Nile Rodgers has talked about using a few notes from his chords rather than the whole thing in a vid somewhere.

[senorblues]

Quick search for him on youtube. Nothing jumped out at me.

[daddymack]

Well, having hosted blues jams for a few years, and fronting a blues band for almost 20, I'll say good blues players have absorbed some theory in order to keep from falling asleep playing straight-up I-IV-V progressions ad nauseum. They should also have listened to the modern stylists, like Ford, Montoya, etc, and some of the fusion guys, many of whom are rooted in blues. They also should listen to the early progenitors like Charlie Patton, Tampa Red, Blind Blake and the post-war electric vanguard like Wolf, Muddy, Gatemouth...and the 3 Kings.

That said most 'hack' blues guitarists are going to benefit from the introduction of major 6th, b5, 9, 11, 13 and diminisheds...the 'flavor' chords that set the better players apart from their weaker counterparts.

'Stormy Monday' is a good example of a tune where you have to step outside the pentatonic box and I-IV-I-V-IV-I for the passing chords and set-up for the turn around.

[senorblues]

In my introductory email response to a CL ad, I asked if I should expect Bb with turnarounds or three chords in E. His response was 1 4 5. Maybe he was trying to be reassuring. :-)

[Mark Wein]

I'd like to steer the discussion away from jazz. I'll be playing with some guys tonight and even though it's defined as a blues jam, I expect to sneak in some chord forms you might normally associate with jazz. I have had the experience of playing with rockers who don't know about altered 5ths, but what usually happens is they hear that their pentatonic scales sound better over a V+9+5 than the V7 bar chord they might hear from a rhythm guitar player. Also frees up the vocals for the same reason. Other comments have addressed other issues regarding the difference between power trios and larger formats, but for now, I just wanted to be able to refer the guitar player to a good source of chord forms that are clearly geared towards blues, rather than jazz . . . . assuming he's at all interested.

 

If he doesn't know these two 9th chord voicings then they would be a good place to start - its a screenshot from my book "Expanded Blues Guitar" so you're not getting the actual lesson but this would be a quick and easy thing to add:

 

 

[Chordite]

"Quick search for him on youtube. Nothing jumped out at me."

 

It was this vid that I recalled. At 3 minutes in though you might as well watch the lot. It is not about altered 5ths specifically more about sparse selection rather than bashing out the whole six string chord

 

[video=youtube_share;CF-XDf_jf5w]