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Can a guitar be in tune, and a guitarist out of tune?


144dB

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Hey all,

 

I'm not a guitar player, I'm a keyboard player. I recorded my brother playing some simple electric guitar parts, and by my ear, the two parts are slightly out of tune with each other. One part is a three part arpeggio of harmonics, and the other is a simple upward strum of triad chords. When we recorded it, we checked the guitar for tuning by ear, as well as with a plugin tuner (Brainworx). There is no tremolo arm or effects on the guitar part. It was recorded dry with a Countryman DI.

 

With a fretted instrument, I wouldn't think it's possible for a player to be out of tune on an in-tune instrument. I could understand a fretless instrument with fingers in the wrong location(s), but I would think the frets would normalize any technique issues.

 

Any insight?

 

 

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If a guitar is really well set up and you have the right touch for it, you won't bend a string out of tune by fretting it. But it's certainly possible to play a guitar that's perfectly in tune with the string open and have some fretted notes sound out of tune.

 

Are the harmonics played on open strings, or are the strings fretted? If they're fretted, it would be easy for the harmonics to be out of tune a bit if he's not careful (and skillful).

 

Also, a normal guitar is even-tempered just like a piano, which means that some chords will have a note or two out of tune, but we get accustomed to that sound so it's not so bad. If you really want strummed chords to be in tune, have him strum, or at least fret the strings, while you fine-tune each string in the chord. At least get one of the chords in tune and then maybe the strummed part will sound OK. If you're really fussy, or the guitar or guitarist is really bad, you can tune one chord, play just that chord in the strummed part, go to the next chord, tune it, and and overdub just that chord, and so on.

 

I read that in Sylvia Massy's book "Recording Unhnged." Doing that would sure get me unhinged. ;)

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Thanks Mike. Very insightful. This session actually occurred a long time ago and I'm just getting around to using the material and finishing it, but my recollection is that the harmonics and strummed chords were played on fretted notes (no open strings). I could very well be wrong on that, but it's a very interesting insight and something to think about on future sessions. And to be fair, my brother is a bit of sloppy player (not that I don't have plenty of weaknesses as a keyboard player).

 

I'm going to record a simple, soft sine wave pad behind the chords and harmonics, and then try to adjust the pitch of the audio by a few cents to improve the tuning. I bumped it 3 or 4 cents in a few areas, and it definitely reduced the beating between the two parts.

 

Thanks again.

 

 

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Mike is on target as usual.

 

When you play a guitar chord, if your left hand bends some of the strings a tad, that will pull those notes out of tune. The fret won't fix that, as the string is pulled and tightened, raising the pitch. It's something guitar players have to learn - how to press straight down on the strings when playing chords. Chord forms that use a lot of fingers - those are the hardest to keep in tune. Also learning to use just enough hand strength to sound the fretted note, but no more - it's common for learning players to squeeze the neck and strings harder in the loud parts, which can lead to pulling strings out of a straight line.

 

Also, a guitar can certainly sound in tune playing open strings or chords up near the nut - but then sound out of tune playing barre chords up on the neck. Intonation issues, there...easily fixed if you know how.

 

nat

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Yes, intonation is an issue. You have to distribute the errors caused by the even-tempered scale equally across the octave. You can sort of stretch tune like a piano, but not very successfully and only for certain keys.

 

Another aspect is fret height. With higher frets, after the string contacts the fret, there's a bit more space before the string reaches the fingerboard, which will make the string go slightly sharp if you push down further than needed. Although it might seem you would therefore want the lowest frets possible, that's not always the case due to personal taste. The Gibson HP (high performance) line has lower frets; I like that a lot, but not everyone does.

 

Also bear in mind that when you pluck a string, the pitch can vary by several cents as it vibrates. This is especially a problem with bass and older strings. Speaking of which...frets don't just wear down from strings, strings wear down from frets. A lot of tuning problems can be solved with a) checking intonation when you change strings, and b) changing strings regularly.

 

The easiest way to fix tuning after the fact is with Melodyne Editor or Studio, which can do polyphonic pitch correction. I use it on soprano ukulele because the damn thing's so small it's really hard to hit the strings just right. But what blew my mind the most was when I was doing a really difficult slide guitar part, and it was perfect except for the final resting chord. The bar ended at an angle, so the high strings were progressively sharper and the low strings were progressively flatter. I figured I'd need to re-cut the part, but I tried Melodyne Editor on it just to verify there's no way it could fix the part. Guess what? It fixed the part, and you'd never know that any processing had been applied. Pretty magical.

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Thanks guys. As I thought about this, the harmonic arpeggios would have to be on open strings. He held his finger over the fret, and pulled it off while plucking to get the harmonic sound.

 

I'm going to listen to it more and see which part is causing the bigger problem. I might just toss one of them. I'll also try Cubase's pitch correction. I'm not certain if it's polyphonic, but the harmonic arpeggios would be close to a monophonic line anyhow. I don't do pitch correction enough to justify a software buy.

 

Lesson learned...

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Inexperienced players will account for a LOT of that issue and even if the strings begin tuned up, if the strangs ain't STRETCHED oot all the way a few goode bangs on em' will knock it right out of tune along with what the others have related. try getting a highly experienced player to do the deed then see what you get outta that. Olde Greg Anderson will tell ya that AN OUNCE OF PREVENTION beats ten pounds of cure.

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