High Action?

[WRGKMC]

Not necessarily. it can just as easily be string height, intonation, worn frets, insufficient relief a string twisted end to end. You want to avoid guessing and take measurements. Nut height is one of those measurements you can make by putting a capo on the 2nd or 3rd fret then gapping the clearance over the first fret.

[kr236rk]

Elagon ruler just in, will update.

 

Thanks.

[DeepEnd]

Not necessarily. it can just as easily be string height' date=' intonation, worn frets, insufficient relief a string twisted end to end. You want to avoid guessing and take measurements. Nut height is one of those measurements you can make by putting a capo on the 2nd or 3rd fret then gapping the clearance over the first fret.[/quote']

Sorry but no. String height is unlikely since the action is already higher than on an otherwise identical guitar that doesn't have the same buzz, as is a twisted string, and an intonation problem is so far out in left field it can't find its way to the stadium any more. And from what I can tell, this is a new or nearly new guitar so worn frets are out of the picture. I did mention in a subsequent post that it could be a high or improperly seated fret or the result of a dry guitar causing the fret to pop up but that's about all. Further, a capo at the second fret won't tell you jack about the nut slots because there won't be any gap. The string will be held down against the first and second frets, therefore no gap. Typical WRGKMC B.S. In case you didn't figure it out, I don't have the guitar in my possession and neither does anyone else except the OP so all any of us can do is play odds and give him the most likely reason, not off-the-wall nonsense like intonation.

[Freeman Keller]

.... I wanted it as a 'live' instrument so I could keep the older one for experimenting with tunings. ....

 

Remember that altered tuning usually changes the tension in one or more strings. Usually not a problem but might be enough to push a setup if its marginal. I play in lots of altered tunings (acoustics) and sometimes adjust string gauges accordingly.

 

ps - thats why my spreadsheet should always be filled out with the strings that will be used tuned as it will be tuned.

 

[kr236rk]

The bass strings are no problem, it's the G, B and top E which feel higher on the fretboard than they should do, it might be a microscopic difference but my fingertips can feel it. It actually makes the strings feel harder to bend despite identical string gauges on both Pacificas. I don't know why that should be - possibly the strings feel awkward at the action height & that makes them feel more difficult to bend? Push-bending mostly. Thanks.

[Grant Harding]

Have we eliminated the nut being too high? I find that can make a whole guitar harder to play. Obviously worst when fretting near the nut, but it really impacts the whole thing.

[kr236rk]

Will update on the Elagon ruler findings, thanks to all

[kr236rk]

Hi, First results are weird,

 

Old Pacifica 112V at 12th fret:

 

1. 060

2. 060

3. 070

4. 080

5. 100

6. 110

 

New Pacifica:

 

1. 060

2. 060

3. 070

4. 090

5. 090

6. 110

 

Is it also possible I am getting 'new fretboard syndrome' here as well, in other words, play the hell out of it then re-evaluate? String 3 to 4 does look like a bit of a jump though, that third string gets a lot of use.

 

Don't forget please I haven't used one of these gauge rulers before, there is no guarantee I'm not messing up. Still waiting for those feelers which would be a useful cross reference I guess?

 

What's next to measure please - I know there are lots of things, but which is best next, the nut please?

[WRGKMC]

Sorry but no. String height is unlikely since the action is already higher than on an otherwise identical guitar that doesn't have the same buzz, as is a twisted string, and an intonation problem is so far out in left field it can't find its way to the stadium any more. And from what I can tell, this is a new or nearly new guitar so worn frets are out of the picture. I did mention in a subsequent post that it could be a high or improperly seated fret or the result of a dry guitar causing the fret to pop up but that's about all. Further, a capo at the second fret won't tell you jack about the nut slots because there won't be any gap. The string will be held down against the first and second frets, therefore no gap. Typical WRGKMC B.S. In case you didn't figure it out, I don't have the guitar in my possession and neither does anyone else except the OP so all any of us can do is play odds and give him the most likely reason, not off-the-wall nonsense like intonation.

 

Read this carefully and you might actually learn something. I know its tough for you to keep and open mind and not think you know it all but you simply don't give the best advice based on inexperience.

 

 

Here's a perfect example of super low action and it still clears the 1st fret with the second fret held down. If they lay on the fret, its too low. The strings should in fact clear every frets with the highest fret held down and get gradually higher from the first string to the last. If you want to find more examples go here to the bottom of the page for some examples. http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online_Resources/Learn_About_Guitar_Nut_and_Saddle_Setup_and_Repair/Nut_Making_and_Setup.html

 

These are the key measurements any competent luthier will make before he evaluates any instrument. Its not BS as you suggest, its a starting point in the evaluation process you must make before you have a clue to what's going on. Its not all you evaluate. You have to go over all things, rocking frets, checking to see if the neck twists etc.

 

If you are unable to make them then you are simply guessing and not giving reliable advices based on facts.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]n31910631[/ATTACH]

[kr236rk]

OMG these measurements. 'Action at 12th fret' given as 1.2mm? That converts to .047 inches which is tolerably close to my .060 if an optical reading from a fine rule will suffice?

 

Still wondering if that jump in height from the 4th to the 3rd string is putting me off my stroke though.

[kr236rk]

Chordite commented 01-30-2017, 04:56 PM

 

 

"Comparing Heights at the first fret will tell you a lot about the nut".

 

Presumably I'd need the feeler gauge for this please?

 

[Freeman Keller]

I'm going to bow out of this - too many people with too many different ideas - all of them right but not necessarily how I would approach it.

 

You might want to go back and read post #11 - the 12th fret actions on those guitars were very close to each other, we determined that other things were involved.

[DeepEnd]

Read this carefully and you might actually learn something. I know its tough for you to keep and open mind and not think you know it all but you simply don't give the best advice based on inexperience. . . .

Let me echo your own words. ''Read this carefully and you might learn something,'' although I strongly doubt it. Yes, let's talk facts. You said to fret the string at the second fret and there would be a gap between the first fret and the string. That is simply not possible. Here's a simple graphic to illustrate:

 

 

You'll note that when the string is fretted at the second fret, there is no gap above the first because you're holding it down between the first and second frets. Right there, you lost me and anyone else who might have been paying attention.

 

You said intonation adjustment that was out of whack could result in buzzing at the first fret or high action. That is simply not possible in either case.

 

I'll give you worn frets but not on a fairly new guitar like the OP's. A high fret is a distinct possibility though.

 

You mentioned relief and yes, it's possible but if the guitar was indeed ''set up'' it shouldn't be. I'll give you that one though.

 

You said a twisted string could result in either high action or buzzing at the first fret. I've been playing guitars for about 45 years and I've never seen high action that was attributable to twisted strings. Again, No. I'll give you twisted strings causing buzzing although I've never heard buzzing that wasn't attributable to something else.

 

You wanted measurements and now we have the beginning of those: Action 0.060-0.110" at the 12th fret for both guitars. That means that, if the OP is noticing ''high action'' near the nut we're talking about nut slots; if the OP is noticing ''high action'' around the 7th fret or so there's probably too much relief; or a combination of both. Right now, in the absence of further measurements, I'm going with the most likely cause, a poorly cut nut, with insufficient relief in second place. If I'm wrong based on further measurements I'll admit it.

 

You also mentioned ''experience.'' Lets talk about that too. Experience helps you narrow down the possible cause of a problem and make an educated guess as to what it might be when you don't have enough data. My experience, which you insist on dismissing, tells me what the most likely cause is for a problem with a guitar I can't hold in my own hands and take measurements. Experience is more than taking measurements and repeating mistakes. It means learning, something you've apparently stopped doing.

[DeepEnd]

Hi, First results are weird,

 

Old Pacifica 112V at 12th fret:

 

1. 060

2. 060

3. 070

4. 080

5. 100

6. 110

 

New Pacifica:

 

1. 060

2. 060

3. 070

4. 090

5. 090

6. 110

 

Is it also possible I am getting 'new fretboard syndrome' here as well, in other words, play the hell out of it then re-evaluate? String 3 to 4 does look like a bit of a jump though, that third string gets a lot of use.

 

Don't forget please I haven't used one of these gauge rulers before, there is no guarantee I'm not messing up. Still waiting for those feelers which would be a useful cross reference I guess?

 

What's next to measure please - I know there are lots of things, but which is best next, the nut please?

First, I'm going to assume ''060'' means 0.060 inches? And that the other measurements are in inches as well? It's pretty much the only thing that makes sense but you never know. The difference between the fourth string heights is very small. You might notice it but I'm not sure I would. If you want, you can lower the string using a small Allen wrench but let's hold off on that for now. Since you're waiting for your feeler gauges, check out the frets. Do a visual inspection to see if any frets look worn or higher than the rest. Wear is extremely unlikely on a new guitar but it's barely possible. Next, take a credit card or similar (work ID, driver's license, etc.) and set it edgewise on top of each fret and see if it rocks. If it does, you have a high fret and I'd take it to a tech or luthier. If all the frets pass, you're ready for those feeler gauges. Once you get your feeler gauges, measure the relief. Put a capo behind the first fret and press the 6th string down at the last fret. Slide a feeler gauge between the string and the 8th fret. The gap should be about 0.008-0.010''. Since your Pacifica is essentially a Strat, I'm using Fender setup specs: https://support.fender.com/hc/en-us/articles/212774786-How-do-I-set-up-my-Stratocaster-guitar-properly-. If the gap is larger, turn the truss rod adjustment nut clockwise 1/8 turn or so, give the neck a few hours to settle, and measure again. Repeat as needed. If the gap is too small, turn the adjustment nut counterclockwise. Once you have the relief set correctly, measure the action again. Since you like the action on your ''old'' guitar, measure it and compare what you get to the ''new'' guitar. Next, hold down the strings at the third fret and check for clearance between the first fret and each string. There should be a tiny gap. That should get you far enough along for now. Yamaha's QC is excellent and I don't expect you to find major issues but you might discover something minor but big enough to be annoying.

[WRGKMC]

How can you possibly gap a fret when you're holding it down???

 

I didn't say hold down the space between the first and second frets, I said hold down the second fret which in your view is the space between the 2nd and 3rd frets.

 

The problem you're having is a matter of conceptual semantics. You're viewing the string left to right - glass half full.

 

When you're working between the Fret and Bridge, your you're viewing the string left to right. You'd hold the space between the 1st and second frets down to leave the 3rf fret exposed- Glass half full.

 

When you're working between the nut and fret you need to view it in reverse, right to left. You hold the string down between the 2nd and 3rd frets so only the second fret is held down. Glass half empty.

 

I realize you take words literally seeing only the glass half full so I'll cut you some slack here.

 

When you work with any kind of physics you see both the glass being half full and half empty. You need to be able to jump to either side of that fret in your minds eye.

 

The ideal point of course is holding down only the second fret at its apex and having both the 1st and 3rd frets are clear.

 

Of course that cant be accomplished in a practical physical manor, but you can conceptualize it.

[kr236rk]

Thanks. The 'credit card test', is that after removing all the strings, to balance the card along the fret and see if the card is stable or wobbles from side to side please?

 

Those measurements are in 10ths of an inch.

 

Still waiting on the feeler gauge.

[DeepEnd]

How can you possibly gap a fret when you're holding it down???

 

I didn't say hold down the space between the first and second frets, I said hold down the second fret which in your view is the space between the 2nd and 3rd frets.

 

The problem you're having is a matter of conceptual semantics. You're viewing the string left to right - glass half full.

 

When you're working between the Fret and Bridge, your you're viewing the string left to right. You'd hold the space between the 1st and second frets down to leave the 3rf fret exposed- Glass half full.

 

When you're working between the nut and fret you need to view it in reverse, right to left. You hold the string down between the 2nd and 3rd frets so only the second fret is held down. Glass half empty.

 

I realize you take words literally seeing only the glass half full so I'll cut you some slack here.

 

When you work with any kind of physics you see both the glass being half full and half empty. You need to be able to jump to either side of that fret in your minds eye.

 

The ideal point of course is holding down only the second fret at its apex and having both the 1st and 3rd frets are clear.

 

Of course that cant be accomplished in a practical physical manor, but you can conceptualize it.

No. Just No. You made an error and now you're trying to rationalize your mistake. If you fret a string ''at the second fret,'' as in the barre for an F# or B, you're holding it down behind the second fret, between the first and second frets. When you set up a guitar, the simplest approach to checking for a high or low nut slot is to check the gap above the first fret. You do that by holding the string down between the second and third frets so that there's a gap between the string and the first fret. That's holding the string down ''at the third fret.'' I'm not having trouble with ''conceptual semantics,'' I'm having trouble with your poor command of the English language and inability to communicate effectively. When you're explaining setup to a player like the OP, you need to either use a player's terms or explain them a whole lot better. To a player, or to me as someone who does setups, the ''second fret'' is the second fret, not some fret you've assigned as the ''second fret.'' If by ''take words literally'' you mean ''read what I wrote,'' then yes, I'm guilty as charged. I can only read what you wrote and not read your mind to figure out what you actually meant. Or I can just assume it's B.S. as usual. This isn't physics, it's ordinary geometry. Finally, your glass is half full of something all right, it's full of B.S.

[DeepEnd]

Thanks. The 'credit card test', is that after removing all the strings, to balance the card along the fret and see if the card is stable or wobbles from side to side please?

 

Those measurements are in 10ths of an inch.

 

Still waiting on the feeler gauge.

You don't need to remove the strings. You can slide the card between the strings. Ideally, you'd want to take all the relief out of the neck but for a quick and dirty check you can do it with the guitar as is.

10ths of an inch? Is 060 0.6 10ths or 6 10ths? It should be 0.6 10ths. 6 10ths is a huge gap, suitable for playing slide but not for normal playing.

[Grant Harding]

You guys are arguing semantics.

 

Pressing the string down to the top of the 2nd fret to check the clearance on the first fret is a normal thing.

If you actually play the F# on your 1st string yes, you'll also push the string down to the 1st fret too, but that's not what this is.

 

If you put a capo on the 2nd fret (right on top of the fret) you'll see the gap that's being argued. If not, you have buzzing open strings.

[kr236rk]

Measured the .100 against a ruler in 1/10s" ~

 

.100" = one tenth of an inch, my math/s is a little rusty or just plain out. Numbers were never my strong point :-o

 

Sorry, these measurements should cover the two guitars.

 

.060 = 6/100 or 3/50"

.070 = 7/100"

.080 = 8/100 = 4/50 = 2/25"

.090 = 9/100"

.100 = 10/100 = 1/10"

.110 = 11/100"

[Freeman Keller]

When I do the test I push the string to the fretboard between the second and third fret - which I call "fretting at the third fret" WRG is dealing with alternate facts. The string will be contacting the 2nd and 3rd fret, but not the 4th, 5th etc, or hopefully, the first. That is the whole idea. Actual gap may be one or two thousands of an inch, 0.001 or 0.002.

[Freeman Keller]

Most of us measure to three decimal places and round off, which are "thousands" of an inch. When speaking of it we usually say something like "60 thousands" for 0.060, which is roughly one sixteenth (1/16) or two thirtyseconds or...

 

Many people use a measuring stick scribed in fractional inches and often you will see guitar action values given in 32nd or 64ths or a combination of them. The nice thing about using decimal inches to three places is that it make comparing measurements very easy (as does metric measurements). Right of the top of your head is 1/16 bigger or smaller than 3/32 or 3/64th?

 

Micrometers, calipers, feeler gauges and that wonderful StewMac string action gauge (which by the way is very good for rocking frets) are all calibrated in decimal inchs

 

[Grant Harding]

hahaha - alternate facts.

[DeepEnd]

^ Freeman, thanks for the clarification. I do it the same way you do. I don't try to hold the string down directly on top of the ''second'' fret, partially because I believe if I'm off center a bit it can mess up the measurement. Frank Ford at frets.com does it the same way you and I do: http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Musician/GenSetup/NutAction/nutaction.html. He specifically says ''Press the string in question down between the second and third frets.'' Marguerite Pastella of Fret Not Guitar Repair also does it the same way: http://www.fretnotguitarrepair.com/repair/acoustic-guitar/action.php. Here's how she explains it: ''To check string height at the nut, fret each string on the 3rd fret and check the gap between the string and the 1st fret.'' She doesn't call it ''the second fret'' either. She recommends 0.020'' or less of clearance for an open string, which would be about .010'' or less fretted. Incidentally, those are great links for the OP and I hope he's reading this.

[DeepEnd]

^ kr236rk, thanks. I was hoping that's what you meant but after going around with WRGKMC I didn't want to take anything for granted. Your numbers for action actually look pretty good but I want to see what the relief measures. In the meantime, I'll ask another couple of questions: When you say the action feels high, does it feel high near the nut or further down the neck? Do both guitars have the same strings (i.e., gauge, composition, brand)? If both guitars have the strings from the factory, they should be identical. If they don't, they could be very different.