Members boomerweps Posted September 18, 2011 Members Share Posted September 18, 2011 Just curious if there's any common sound related equipment that would care about that? I can't think of any off-hand? Uh, yes, PEOPLE. Oft time the neutral is connected to the ground, as required at the main breaker panel in a building. Some gear also grounds the electronics via the Neutral, just like vintage guitar amps. Makes the whole rack via the metal rack rails hot and shocking. No probs with the gear but a guy got shocked, that's how we found the problem AND learned to always test the unknown power, at least with a simple hot, neutral, ground plug in tester. Two of my rackriders also have voltage and line connection indicators. This time we switched outlets, told the owner about it, asked and then later rewired the outlet correctly when we had the time. Boomerweps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted September 18, 2011 Members Share Posted September 18, 2011 Never ground the neutral to any chassis or ground connection ever. Even old guitar amps use a capacitor for ground reference on an ungrounded circuit (the shock potential comes from leakage across the capacitor). The ONLY place the ground and neutral should be connected is at the main service point, that is also the point that building steel, pipework, and driven electrode is bonded. (there are some specific exceptions on this for equipotential installations). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted September 18, 2011 Members Share Posted September 18, 2011 Some gear also grounds the electronics via the Neutral, just like vintage guitar ampsVintage amps had a "polarity" switch so even they didn't care which of the two prongs were neutral. If a guy got shocked by a reversed neutral-hot I'd suspect the gear is at fault and should be fixed . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hegmatronicon Posted September 19, 2011 Members Share Posted September 19, 2011 Apologies if this comes out snotty etc But what is wrong with the power in the USA? I see quite a few of these threads on here about things in buildings being mis-wired, all these ppl carrying circuit testers around with them and testing everything at venues etc before gigs.......and i dont understand it? My reference point is that personally......i dont know ANYONE that owns a circuit tester (that isnt a sparky of course), I have never known any venues where the power has caused any problems to anyone playing there, or has even ever been called into doubt at anytime, and talking to a few of my friends in bands - nor have they. So what is the issue? I honestly dont understand - i'm not trying to start an argument - i just wouldn't mind someone pointing out why this stuff seems to be "common" so to speak. (I dont mean common/regular i suppose.....but "as comman as it seems to be".) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lifeloverwg Posted September 19, 2011 Members Share Posted September 19, 2011 Apologies if this comes out snotty etcBut what is wrong with the power in the USA? I see quite a few of these threads on here about things in buildings being mis-wired, all these ppl carrying circuit testers around with them and testing everything at venues etc before gigs.......and i dont understand it? My reference point is that personally......i dont know ANYONE that owns a circuit tester (that isnt a sparky of course), I have never known any venues where the power has caused any problems to anyone playing there, or has even ever been called into doubt at anytime, and talking to a few of my friends in bands - nor have they.So what is the issue? I honestly dont understand - i'm not trying to start an argument - i just wouldn't mind someone pointing out why this stuff seems to be "common" so to speak. (I dont mean common/regular i suppose.....but "as comman as it seems to be".) I carry a tester and use it regularly but rarely find problems. Why is whacked out power wiring more common in the US than in OZ? Might have something to do with our independent cowboy heritage fantasy that makes us all think we can do things our selves without inspectors or rules and regulations getting in the way of doing wrong. Or maybe we just test it more often and you and your mates have just been lucky so far. Might also just be that your entire country has the population of the greater Los Angeles valley so it just seems more common here because there are so many more of us here than there and nobody talks about when they don't have a problem.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hegmatronicon Posted September 19, 2011 Members Share Posted September 19, 2011 Might also just be that your entire country has the population of the greater Los Angeles valley so it just seems more common here because there are so many more of us here than there and nobody talks about when they don't have a problem.... This did cross my mind as i was asking the question actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted September 19, 2011 Members Share Posted September 19, 2011 There's also the pesky problem of scary high line faults in AU and NZ. We have to design amps for your country to account for the possibility of 275 volts at the AC socket. Regulation is also pretty spotty in AU, though at the branch circuit level you benefir from 1/2 the current because of the higher voltage so the voltage drops are less (for a given wire size). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hegmatronicon Posted September 19, 2011 Members Share Posted September 19, 2011 There's also the pesky problem of scary high line faults in AU and NZ. We have to design amps for your country to account for the possibility of 275 volts at the AC socket. Regulation is also pretty spotty in AU, though at the branch circuit level you benefir from 1/2 the current because of the higher voltage so the voltage drops are less (for a given wire size). I know you are speaking english...because i recognise all of the words....and yet........... lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted September 19, 2011 Members Share Posted September 19, 2011 Translated, your line voltage is all over the place. Especially out in the bush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gadget Posted September 19, 2011 Members Share Posted September 19, 2011 Was this real staging, or some DIY with plywood & 2x4s? If it was handmade, did it have power outlets on the stage? If so, maybe the metal strip around the edge was put on with drywall screws that were too long and maybe went through and pierced home grade romex wiring? Just my $0.02 guess. BTW, what prompted this idea from me is a funny story. When I was a kid, my dad ran a concrete company in rural Alabama, mainly doing septic tanks. He had this little office building about the size of a Cracker Jack box. In this office he had a combination desk and counter. People would come in and place orders at the counter. Well this counter had this aluminum band that went all the way around. Being the prankster my dad was, he realized the counter's edge was in two pieces and the joints were right in the middle of the wide edge of the counter, such that normally when people put their hands on the counter, each hand was touching a different aluminum strip. So he got his Dupont dynamite blasting box and wired each strip to the blasting box. He would pull up the plunger and sit on his stool behind the counter, with his foot on the plunger handle. I couldn't have been more than five or six, but one day while playing I stopped in to see my dad (we lived right next to the place). I ran in the office and said hi to my dad and probably my uncle who worked with him too and put my hands on the counter. All the sudden, WHAM I get this jolt running up my arms as my dad slammed the plunger down with his foot. It zinged for a bit but there was no damage. It was really funny. You can imagine the fun I had with my friends as I would coax them to come into the office. It was also really fun watching these big burly contractors come in and get shocked. I've told my dad that I want that blasting box when he is ready to give it up. He has toyed with selling it and I have too, but I have fond memories of the fun we had with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted September 20, 2011 CMS Author Share Posted September 20, 2011 Why do I get the feeling people here look FORWARD to the situations where they "can" walk? Almost like it's a power-trip or something. COULD I have walked and not violated my contract? Probably. But I wasn't looking for a way to get OUT of the gig; I was looking for ways to continue. It seemed safe enough and like we maybe even resolved the situation by showtime, so----The Show Must Go On.Was it the by-the-textbook safest thing to do? Probably not. But I evaluated everything to best of my ability and went forward. I wasn't in the mood to play "I'm The Boss Here And I'm Gonna Ruin Everbody's Night Because I CAN". I've made plenty of stupid decisions and lived to tell about it thus far in my life; I'm sure I'll make plenty more. And that's the unqualified optimism of youth. You've made it through a few other problems, therefore you'll make it through this one. This isn't intended to be insulting, but if it is, so be it. You don't know about electricity, yet you felt you were in a position to make decisions about a situation regarding electrical safety. You're making comments about the egos of others here, yet your own ego told you that YOUR show was more important than OTHER PEOPLE's lives. "The Show Must Go On" doesn't mean you perform regardless of the possibility of electrocution or fire. Fix problems, then perform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rezrover Posted September 20, 2011 Members Share Posted September 20, 2011 "The Show Must Go On" Regardless of your life!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted September 20, 2011 Author Members Share Posted September 20, 2011 Regardless of your life!!!I wish I could attribute it to "unquailfied optimism of youth". But at the age 50, I don't really have that luxury any longer. No, I don't know much about electricity, but I WAS the person there who A) is the go-to guy regarding gear and power issues and B) the guy who had to make any calls. Nobody associated with the venue with any degree of authority was present ("head bartender" was probably the highest authority present) and I was in a situation with A) the band fully set up and ready to go, B) 2 band members that had driven over 100 miles to get to the gig with a receipts in hand for their hotel room and gas waiting for reimbursement C) caterers setting up the serving stations D) the event coordinator telling me the busload of 100 guests who are all up from 500 miles away will be arriving any minute E) I already cashed and spent the $500 deposit for the gig I received weeks ago and she's holding out the check for the remaining $4,500 balance and I've got band members who have already made plans regarding what to do with their share.Now, of course, I know that NONE of these things are worth ANYONE'S life or safety but I hope by presenting the full picture it is easier to get the idea that the threshold for "show must go on" is a bit higher than it might be in many other more-typical gig situations: this wasn't a standard bar gig where you can just run some recorded music instead and hope for the best evening possible, or a concert where you can refund everyones money or issue a rain-check. This would have been a situation where: some company from Los Angeles spent however-much-money to transport and lodge 100+ employees to Lake Tahoe for a night or two for a company party, rent a venue out for the evening, pay for outside catering, pay for a band, pay for an event coordinator, and all that money and effort spent on their part would have been de-railed due to a call that I alone would have made.Yeah, in the abstract it's easy to stand outside and say "I would have walked". When you're on the front line however, it can be quite different. Was for me anyway. My only regret was, as I stated earlier, that due to the fact that I was quite ill that evening, I didn't personally put 100% into making sure everything was as safe as I, with my limited knowledge of electricity, could make sure it was. But I also didn't feel the level-of-danger was particularly high either, or I wouldn't have continued Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Reson8tor Posted September 20, 2011 Members Share Posted September 20, 2011 Now, of course, I know that NONE of these things are worth ANYONE'S life or safety but I hope by presenting the full picture it is easier to get the idea that the threshold for "show must go on" is a bit higher than it might be in many other more-typical gig situations: What about finding a middle ground between "show must go on," and walking out completely? Was there no option to move some tables and play in a different part of the room? It won't work in something like a formal theater or concert hall, but it sounds like this was an ad-hoc stage setup to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted September 20, 2011 Author Members Share Posted September 20, 2011 What about finding a middle ground between "show must go on," and walking out completely? Was there no option to move some tables and play in a different part of the room? It won't work in something like a formal theater or concert hall, but it sounds like this was an ad-hoc stage setup to begin with. Not without delaying the start-time of the band by at least an hour, and since it was only a two-set deal in a California nightclub with a strict cut-off time to begin with....not really an option I wanted to have to consider either. We're not exactly a band that can just pick-up-and-move across the room in a couple of minutes. We're a full-on show band with a ton of gear trying our best to pare-down and cram everything into a very small area as it was. Again, it was just a last-minute call I made. Right one? Wrong one? I don't know and not really interested in debating or defending that much. I knew when I posted this I'd get a bunch of "you should have walked lest you become the next Great White" responses, and I understand that position and respect it for the most part. So I'm cool with getting beat up about that. I'm a big boy and can take the hits. I was mostly just interested to find out if anyone else had ever encountered a similar situation so, should I ever come across it again, might be able to trace the cause quicker so "just walk" doesn't HAVE to be an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rezrover Posted September 20, 2011 Members Share Posted September 20, 2011 Might be the one stage that'll tease your hair for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted September 20, 2011 Members Share Posted September 20, 2011 We try to pull the stage out a bit and stick a rubbered-bottom rug between the stage and the wall. Not sure if that helps or not. Nobody wants to touch the edge of the stage to find out!You really should carry a cheap voltmeter to measure if something is hot or not. Touching it or sparking it to a grounded outlet box is "Great White" for sure . An outlet tester is useful but not for tracking down "hot" metal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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