'Splain Something to me

[IsildursBane]

Dan--It was a joke :poke:

 

Doh!

 

 

[Racehead]

I totally get what that guitar player was saying. For many years I'd been told that I played too quietly, people couldn't hear me well enough/solo's didn't stand out etc. All this time I had my amp angled towards me and basically pointed straight at my head just like most guitarists I see. When I'd try to turn up to what "others" were telling me sounded good it was too much of me in my face and not enough everyone else and my playing suffered badly. I played timidly trying not to hit the strings to hard etc. When I thought about it it made alot of sense to me. How can it sound balanced to me if only MY amp is pointed at me ? I always had the sense that I was overpowering the band and couldn't get a proper sense of balance, dynamics and just a general feel for how the song "actually" sounded. Finally I took my combo amp off of the stand and pointed it to one side. Now I believe the song sounds to me much closer to how it sounds to everyone else. Maybe not a direct comparison to the situation the TS experienced but close enough for a response !

[scarecrowbob]

Well Dan and Shaster, I do think those is are helpful comments; it is true that if you make the guy play timidly, things will suck.

 

Which is more-or-less why my normal routine is to just say "okay" and let folks get on with playing their show rather than scheming some way to manipulate what they are doing.

 

For the same reason I would not want to hear myself sing full-tilt into my own ear (heck, I'm okay with singing based on what I'm getting off the FOH, usually) I can see why pointing an amp at your head might be no-go.

 

But shaster, I don't agree that just because "he's happy with an amp on the floor and he's happy with a shield, then all is good."

 

It isn't all good because the room is simply way too loud with him playing at that volume level.

 

So I can see that there is more to why folks don't want an amp pointed at their head (thanks for pointing that out, y'all). But maybe I just am not getting why this isn't obvious to the guys on the stage.

 

On some level, I don't care-- I can mute the master when the owner complains about the volume level , and when she tells them to hush down, she knows its their issue. But since it is a weekly gig that I've had for a while and would like to keep working, it would be nice if it weren't an issue almost every single week.

 

At this point, I think that maybe it is an issue with the folks who run the venue wanting really low volume levels and booking acts that aren't used to that. That is, I think Andy might have some insight in his comment.

[Shaster]

But shaster, I don't agree that just because "he's happy with an amp on the floor and he's happy with a shield, then all is good." It isn't all good because the room is simply way too loud with him playing at that volume level. So I can see that there is more to why folks don't want an amp pointed at their head (thanks for pointing that out, y'all). But maybe I just am not getting why this isn't obvious to the guys on the stage. On some level, I don't care-- I can mute the master when the owner complains about the volume level , and when she tells them to hush down, she knows its their issue. But since it is a weekly gig that I've had for a while and would like to keep working, it would be nice if it weren't an issue almost every single week. At this point, I think that maybe it is an issue with the folks who run the venue wanting really low volume levels and booking acts that aren't used to that. That is, I think Andy might have some insight in his comment.

 

Well..... if the guitarist is too loud with a shield, then he's just too loud, probably no matter what you tried. I suspect if he aimed his amp at his head he would rather suffer through that then turn down - and so he would still be too loud.

 

Your situation reminds me of a band I mixed a very long time ago. The guitarist had a Roland JC120 cranked. People would come up and say the band (and the guitarist) were too loud. Sometimes I would briefly zero the faders to show them what was in the mains and what was coming off of the stage. And guitar was never in the mains.

 

I didn't feel like I could complain to the band because they were all "semi - famous" veterans who had toured with Motown..... and were well respected in the community. In addition, they had hired me, and so I just made the best of it.

 

In your situation, the club has hired you, so I guess a conversation with the owner about why certain bands are louder than others might be in order.

 

Sidenote - there's this one casino "chain" that I play that sent out an ultimatum to the bands. Turn down or you won't get hired back. It basically solved their problems because some of the bands turned down, and those that didn't no longer play there.

 

Maybe if the club management had a conversation with the bands? I don't know, just a thought.

[Rick6]

If he points it at his head, he can't turn it up loud enough to overdrive it and get the searing tone he wants. If he points it somewhere else he can overdrive it more without blasting himself as much. Also, the sound is going to be different if he hears it off axis, and that seems to be the sound he wants.

 

But, this isn't an apology for this act. I think he ought to get a one watt amp, a microphone and a powered speaker. Then he can drive his amp as hard as he wants and mic the sound into the PA and/or powered speaker as a monitor -- and point that at his head.

 

And, there are a number of low powered tube amps that might work for this application.

[TimmyP]

The highs on a 4x cab shoot straight out - very narrow dispersion. He has no idea what he's hitting people with. If it's pointed at his head, he'll get the punishment, and adjust accordingly.

[harryh]

 

You think correctly. They CAN create more problems than they solve. Drum shields and hard back walls/ceilings are a good example of where it may not help at all.

 

 

Isits, I've heard several drummers say that they never knew how loud they played until they had a shield. My band has a five-piece hinged drum shield. Never use it live because it's too heavy to both carry easily and set up quickly. We don't currently use it for rehearsals because the drummer says the 'sound bouncing back at him off the shield is beating him up'. I thought what he was really telling me is that 'hey, I'm too set in my ways to play quieter', but after reading this thread, I feel like my drummer has been trying to tell me exactly what Horse said about drum shields and hard walls/ceilings!

 

What complicates matters is that 'every body else in the band' likes it when the drummer is behind the shield. So, I've been trying to figure out how to use the shield and alleviate my drummer's concerns.

 

Here is the shield that we use:http://www.clearsonic.com/A55.htm

 

The company, Clearsonic, also sells some sound absorbing panels that can fit inside the bottom of the shield: http://www.clearsonic.com/sorber.htm

 

What I'm thinking about doing is buying five of the 33" tall panels to fit inside the bottom of the shield and figure out some kind of sound absorption scheme on the wall behind the drummer. Anybody got any ideas? I'm open to suggestions, but I need something that is both flame retardant and easily removable.

 

Thanks, Harry

[harryh]

 

....I don't agree that just because "he's happy with an amp on the floor and he's happy with a shield, then all is good." It isn't all good because the room is simply way too loud with him playing at that volume level.

 

 

Scarecrow, I want to apologize. For all the time I've been reading this thread, I thought that the Super Reverb player's shield actually solved the problem, but you didn't think the solution was very elegant. Now I see that I was wrong; sorry, man.

 

I do have a few questions. Does this musician have a complete 'wrap-around' shield, or just 2 or 3 panels up front? If he has a full shield, is there some sort of sound absorbing panel on the top, or is the sound shooting up into the whole stage area?

 

Also, out of curiosity, how is the rest of the band handling the sound levels? Is everybody else loud, but he's the loudest, is he the only problem, what gives?

 

'Crow, I do have one other thought for your Super Reverb player.

 

One thing you could suggest to him is to disconnect two of his four speakers (take the positive leads off the two bottom speakers and tape them off). The amp definitely won't be as loud!

 

It will mean that he's seeing a 4 ohm load instead of a 2 ohm load and it will sound a little different (probably bass-ier, but he's got a separate middle and bass control to fix it). I have another friend who plays Supers and he has a built-in switch for his two bottom speakers. He also uses different-value-from-original rectifier tubes and power tubes to change his volume if he needs to, but you have to be a tech-head to do all that and most guitar players aren't very technically oriented, are they?

 

PM if you want, and I'll go over to my buddy's house this week and take a pic of his speaker-switch set-up (it's mounted on his speaker-board, pretty cool).

 

Harry

[StratGuy22]

He should get a Power Brake or attenuator. Or maybe work on his tone. If its too searing pointed at his head, then what he's hearing when it blasts past his legs has less highs in it. He needs to point it at his head and then adjust it to his liking there.

 

Another idea I've used to some success, is turning the amp around backwards, that way the "Cone of Death" as I refer to it, isn't pointed at the crowd, but at the wall. Then I can mic it, get what I need. I can put what he needs in the monitors, & everyone is happy.

[blsmn]

 

Isits, I've heard several drummers say that they never knew how loud they played until they had a shield. My band has a five-piece hinged drum shield. Never use it live because it's too heavy to both carry easily and set up quickly. We don't currently use it for rehearsals because the drummer says the 'sound bouncing back at him off the shield is beating him up'. I thought what he was really telling me is that 'hey, I'm too set in my ways to play quieter', but after reading this thread, I feel like my drummer has been trying to tell me exactly what Horse said about drum shields and hard walls/ceilings! What complicates matters is that 'every body else in the band' likes it when the drummer is behind the shield. So, I've been trying to figure out how to use the shield and alleviate my drummer's concerns. Here is the shield that we use: http://www.clearsonic.com/A55.htm The company, Clearsonic, also sells some sound absorbing panels that can fit inside the bottom of the shield: http://www.clearsonic.com/sorber.htm What I'm thinking about doing is buying five of the 33" tall panels to fit inside the bottom of the shield and figure out some kind of sound absorption scheme on the wall behind the drummer. Anybody got any ideas? I'm open to suggestions, but I need something that is both flame retardant and easily removable. Thanks, Harry

 

 

If the overall sound with him behind the shield is OK and the issue is specifically with the loudness for the drummer, hook him up with some good in-ear monitors and a ButtKicker - only way to go behind a shield IMO....

[scarecrowbob]

Well, there are lots of kinds of solutions to these problems that work.

 

IME, the ones that work best usually involve -less- gear: smaller amps pointed at player's heads.

 

Or, in this particular case, the solution (for the venue owners) is to simply stop doing music on their slower night when it seems louder because there are far fewer folks.

 

Some problems can be solved with zero gear

[StratGuy22]

It ironic that someone who is concerned with his tone at any cost, volume be damned, thinks nothing of the whole band sounding like {censored} because he's too loud.

 

 

[Mutha Goose]

It ironic that someone who is concerned with his tone at any cost, volume be damned, thinks nothing of the whole band sounding like {censored} because he's too loud.

 

The guitar player of one of the bands I work for regularly is a soundguy. If anyone should understand this, you would think he would. Nope! He is the loudest guitar player of all of my regular customers.

 

To your earlier comment about the Power Brake. I use one. Absolutely love it. But I can also see why many guitar players shy away from them (many don't even know they exist). Not only are they relatively expensive, they have a non-linear attenuation, rolling off the highs a little much. Not a big deal if you account for it, but it is there.

[ey86798]

When I started out back in the early '80s, I had a 50W (non-master) Marshall top and a 4x12. Sounded marvellous, and I looked like a real rock star (well, maybe not, but...). It was FAR too loud for anywhere we played. So I got 3 off 8.2 ohm wirewound resistors and an aluminium box. Wired up the resistors like 3 speakers of a 4x12, plugged in my cab where the "4th" speaker would have been. Problem solved for all but the smallest venues (box got pretty hot). So I made another one and daisy-chained them for really small places. I now had the equivalent of a 12W or 3W amp, depending which config I used. You can do this for a fraction of the cost of a Power-Brake or similar. It's not adjustable, but do you really need that?

(I play a Boogie DC-3 now, and just turn down the Master).

[StratGuy22]

I also beg to differ with the expense. It should just be factored in as part of the rig.

 

$2000 guitar

$2000 amp

$500 power brake (I have no clue what they cost)

 

If I wanted the full on break up crunch of my JCM800, I would definitely get one.

 

My tone, while not my personal nirvana, gets the job done. 80% of the people don't even know the difference between a guitar & a bass...

 

They have to think about the band, & how they sit in the mix. I love chorus, & use it all the time at home. But in the band, it just doesn't fit, so I go without it.

 

Gotta think of the big picture. The band isn't just about me. I want US to sound good.

[Rezrover]

 

You can do this for a fraction of the cost of a Power-Brake or similar. It's not adjustable, but do you really need that?

 

 

Some people need idiot-proof in a pretty package.

[Crownman]

I had people like this all the time when I was the house guy at the last club I worked for. One night was a blues jam night, a very well run one IMO, run by the local blues society. So it wasn't the hell that probably popped into your head when you read "blues jam". LOL.

 

However, I had the guys in the host band come in all the time with a Reverb or Deluxe, etc. Stand 2 feet in front of it, and proceed to shoot needles into the backs of their ankles and the patrons faces as well as mine back in the booth. Most of the time the room would pretty much clear out onto the patio leaving me, the staff, and a few patrons to get slaughtered.

 

 

This is the way I handled it. I would go through all the options I could think of to keep the guy happy and save the rest of us from abuse. If the guy was not hearing anything I suggested or would not budge in the least I got the guys running the jam involved. Almost all the time the guys running the jam would tell me to do what I needed to do. So in the above instance with the guy not willing to do anything I'd fix the situation and tell them that it was going to stay that way or they could go ahead and leave. The few times I had to do that I was backed up by the venue and the guys running the jam.

 

There are plenty of people that don't like me because I can be pretty abrasive at times and will tell it how it is whether feelings get hurt or not. However, I have gotten plenty of calls from people who hate me because they know I'll deliver a good product giving them their money's worth. My job is to make the band sound good in the given room. If the band is preventing me from doing that, I have NO problem telling them what's going to be done. I will bend over backwards to accomodate, but I will only bend so far.

 

I actually had a guy call me last summer about doing a gig. After talking for a minute he proceeds to say " The dude that referred you said you were total asshole, but that you know what you're doing, have good equipment" , LOL. I can live with that. I much rather have that reputation than one of being a pushover that will settle for {censored} sound because " you can't confront anyone in the band". {censored} that. I'll bend but I won't break.

[trevcda]

 

The other thing I can't stand is guitar in the monitors. Even with the best system on earth, what comes out of a monitor is a pale comparison to what's coming out of the amp.

 

 

And that crap tone is what you're sending to FOH. I think more guitar players should hear what their "I've gotta have it dimed and pointed at my knees to get my sound" tone, sounds like after the mic. Hey and just for kicks let's smear it with time misalignment bewteen the backline and the mains as they intermingle out front, so you can get "your tone". Then let's crank up everything else in the monitors, causing more stage backwash, all so you can hear it along with "your tone". Add all that stuff up and "your tone" isn't so great any more is it? Not a personal attack on Mark, by the way, more of a sweeping generalization of situations like this.

 

To the OP, I think I saw Clapton, or some other guitar guy of that era, pointing amps straight up at the ceiling one time. This might help with the beaming effect, but probably won't do much for stupid volume levels.

[Rezrover]

To the OP, I think I saw Clapton, or some other guitar guy of that era, pointing amps straight up at the ceiling one time.

 

[Mogwix]

 

I play with a 5W Blackstar HT-5 through a Marshall 412 cab.

 

Funny reading this thread again, I only used the HT-5 for maybe three shows, then bought a 50W marshall DSL that I promptly blew up during a recording session. Got it fixed, and I've been rocking it ever since.

 

Thing is, I don't ever have to turn it up loud for it to sound great. Rig is my fender strat, into a boss SD-1, into the green channel of the DSL... wham, huge guitar tone at any volume. I play a straight 412 cab that sits on the floor, so although it's actually pointing at my knees, I keep it just a little bit quieter than the drummer and I have no problem hearing it. The bass player has really {censored}ty tone but is pretty timid with his volume, altogether the band sounds great even though the drums are loud as {censored}.

[Rezrover]

 

and I play with a 5W Blackstar HT-5 through a Marshall 412 cab.

 

 

Have you seen these 1 watt heads from Marshall?

 

[video=youtube;Mo2TDwMN7Tg]

[WynnD]

 

Magnets, double rainbows, all that-- I can get from the wiki, but how does this work? I'm talking to a pretty good guy whose been playing guitar forever. The guy is smart, nice, successful as a musician, in his late 50s, great chops. We're in a really nice club with no lack for anything PA related-- EAW mains, microwedges, m7cl-- they even have a nice DW house kit. He's setting up a fender super or something that has to be 50+ W into 4x10" to play for less than 50 people, and I'm trying to gently get him over to the fact that the owners of the place will tell me its too loud no matter how loud it is, and that perhaps the amp he's setting might be a little loud for the room. Pointing out that his amp has some nifty little arms, I inquire if he could maybe point his amp at his head instead of off the 2" stage at my (and everyone else's) head. He says that he would prefer not to, because then it is too loud and it makes him play "timidly". He would instead, prefer to put some clear plexiglass he's brought in front of the amp. Now here's my question: in what kind of world does it make sense to say that the amp is too loud when it is pointed at you, but it's just fine pointed at an audience 20' away? The guy totally said it like it was a legitimate kind of concern, so maybe someone can help me understand why what he said isn't just stupid.

 

 

One of my prior guitarists had a super reverb with 4-10" JBLs. That thing was loud! On the other hand, the 50 watt amp doesn't need to be run full out. My current guitarist has a 160 watt amp and while he's louder than I want, he's not loud. (That amp has always been loafing.)