Members agedhorse Posted October 16, 2011 Members Share Posted October 16, 2011 How can you not see this? I just don't get it. Yes, you clearly do not get it. I see it much more clearly than you could possibly imagine, and others here see it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members twostone Posted October 16, 2011 Members Share Posted October 16, 2011 I am with Andy on this one. In fact, I would rather use a Mixwiz.Hey old timer I"ll trade you a used Mixwiz for your used Yamaha digital mixer since you rather use a Mixwiz. So if you had to give up your Yamaha digital mixer you wouldn't even consider a SL mixer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Axisplayer Posted October 16, 2011 Members Share Posted October 16, 2011 NO!!!!!! I will keep the Yamahas I have. I just can't adjust to the SL paradigm after years of Yamaha, hence the Mixwiz comment. I had a little of the same feeling on an iLive 112 the other day. A SL on steroids, but for some reason it felt more my style. If Yamahas did not exist, I honestly never gave thought to what I might own. I guess I would consider a SL since I would never have learned "the Yamaha way." I am now jonesing for a small Digico or SC48 but the sticker shock never goes away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted October 16, 2011 Members Share Posted October 16, 2011 For people that are comfortable with the digital boards, the SL is a good solution. There are lots of people that can't handle a SL. There are plenty of people that can't handle the 2 sweepable mids on the MixWiz. There are tons of people that can't setup inserts for gates and compression. There are lots of people that need the most simple rig they can get ..... and even then they are likely to mess up things. The thing is, most musicians aren't very good sound engineers. They care much more about their amp, or their drums, etc, etc, than they do about how the PA is setup. For those who are decent amateur sound engineers .... like myself ..... the SL is a pretty good deal (even though I still use a MixWiz at this time). I have played around with the SL at GC and found that it was fairly easy for me to figure out..... at least the basics .... ie, channel eq control, and basic mixing. If the target market of the SL was people like myself, it would be a pretty small market I think. I believe that it is a little wider than that. I am thinking that by targeting lower trained musicians, SL could be pretty overwhelming..... at least that is how I took Agedhorse's comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members twostone Posted October 16, 2011 Members Share Posted October 16, 2011 NO!!!!!! I will keep the Yamahas I have. I just can't adjust to the SL paradigm after years of Yamaha, hence the Mixwiz comment. I had a little of the same feeling on an iLive 112 the other day. A SL on steroids, but for some reason it felt more my style.If Yamaha's did not exist, I honestly never gave thought to what I might own. I guess I would consider a SL since I would never have learned "the Yamaha way." I am now jonesing for a small Digico or SC48 but the sticker shock never goes away. Yea I figured you were spoiled on the Yamaha and it would be tough going back to analog after having every thing at your finger tips.Hope you know I was just kidding ya I'm sure if I owned a Yamaha digital mixer you would have to pry it away from my cold dead hands.Since I'm a adat user and owner and belong to the HD newsgroup I heard a lot great things about the Yamaha mixers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted October 16, 2011 Author Members Share Posted October 16, 2011 Agedhorse Here are my responses from some of your recent replies...... From a business perspective you should be thrilled with this brave new world of non-standardness. All these stupid and confused folks are service call opportunities. It sounds like you could have enough work for a full time hire. That's good, no? Regarding your comment about none of your customers caring about recording. IMO, this is a clear example of YOU not getting it. This is one of the MAJOR inovations and huge selling point of this board and you seem to see it as scope creep and noise. And really?..... none of your clients care at all about this feature? I really find that hard to believe. How many clients do you have that use this board? is it 4 or 40? As far as me personally not "getting it", we all know what you do for a living, but do you know what I do? I do supply side natural gas and electricity management for industrial and large commercial customers. I spend my days explaining the details of energy purchasing (commodities, supplier contracts, utility tariffs, etc), often to folks that are wearing multiple hats in an organization and need the hand holding I provide. I also work with energy suppliers who use our Ebay like web based platform to present pricing, services, and contracts. With my energy operations background and some data base design skills, I work with our programmers developing the platform. It's extremely important that there is constant attention to keeping things as intuitive as possible. The better the design, the easier my job ..... sound familiar? I tell you this so you understand that the skills and experience you pride yourself on are not yours alone. Yes, you are a sound industry professional, obviously very intelligent, and I respect your knowledge and appreciate your willingness to impart your wisdom via this forum. That said, many of us possess similar skills as it relates to our areas of expertise. Many of us also have to deal with some of the same day to day frustrations as you in providing production services to our clients. To this end, my weekend warrior band has morphed into a business whereby around 30 of the shows we do annually are one off weddings or corporate gigs played to strangers, all with different expectations, levels of experience, and competence. I just ask that you don't be so quick on the trigger when assuming none of us "get it". It's fine to relate your experiences, but that doesn't mean the rest of us are dumb-asses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 16, 2011 Members Share Posted October 16, 2011 For those who are decent amateur sound engineers .... like myself ..... the SL is a pretty good deal (even though I still use a MixWiz at this time). I have played around with the SL at GC and found that it was fairly easy for me to figure out..... at least the basics .... ie, channel eq control, and basic mixing.If the target market of the SL was people like myself, it would be a pretty small market I think. I believe that it is a little wider than that. I am thinking that by targeting lower trained musicians, SL could be pretty overwhelming..... at least that is how I took Agedhorse's comments. This is exactly how I ment it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PureSoundEnt Posted October 16, 2011 Members Share Posted October 16, 2011 Yes, you clearly do not get it. I see it much more clearly than you could possibly imagine, and others here see it too. Okay, it's all good. You see what you see and I see what I see. And since you want to bring "others" in on this. I would wager to say that there are more here that see what I see more than there are those who see what you see. You see? Hahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 16, 2011 Members Share Posted October 16, 2011 To clarify, I have 3 customers with the SL, 2 are delighted with it and one has had enough frustrations (some not of their doing) that they are reconsidering something like a MixWiz, and one who tried the SL alongside the MixWiz with their in-house staff under some simulated scenarios like what they see regularly and the staff all preferred the MixWiz. For THEIR application, the MixWix was a better choice. Most of my clients (I have roughly 300 installations), including those who have the SL and those who do not, do not care about the recording functions. They are using their console as a live audio solution first and foremost. I have one client who does care and a multi-track recording, it's a (large) church, and the M7 along with the associated accessory cards does a nice job. They also have a full time professional sound guy who oversees all of the details and keeps things under control. Absurd, I didn't mean to imply that you did not have the skills or the background to not get it. What I am saying is that it's easier looking into an industry from one small segment and make an assumption about the entire industry. I work with many of the segments and see how the SL would be a poor choice for quite a few of them. There are a couple segments where it's an ideal piece (as I have also mentioned). IMO, if they offered the same piece of hardware is a live version and a recording version, (a simple switch flag upon boot-up), I think they could do a better job servicing some of the segments much better by tailoring the features and workflow to the specific tasks. The analog combination consoles of yesteryear suffered from the same challenges and frustrations IMO. Regarding mission creep, let's look at the cell phone industry. I keep getting pitched on cool new features, smart this and smart that, but what do I want my phone to do primarily??? Make and receive a f*cking phone call without dropping. Cell industry... this is where you need to place your effort. Once you get this right, I will be much more likely to pay more for features (that work). I'm sure some of you can understand this example? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Axisplayer Posted October 17, 2011 Members Share Posted October 17, 2011 In my last 300 gigs since going digital, I have had only one time, ONE TIME, that anyone asked if I ever recorded the shows. It is absolutely irrelevant to me to be able to record. If it could do 700 tracks at Studer or better quality, I wouldn't pay an extra $5 for it. I do want a workflow I appreciate, rock solid performance, a feature set that meets my requirements for the work I do, and a decent interface. The console will only be used for live FOH, ever. I don't and won't ever record, not interested in it, and no one could afford to make me interested in it ($$$.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Axisplayer Posted October 17, 2011 Members Share Posted October 17, 2011 Twostone, I got it! I do love my Yamahas. I understand the interface and like it. It feels like an old pair of shoes. I honestly felt that way about it after the first day with it. Intuitive, and I follow their work flow well. My honest take on the SL is that it is OK if it meets your needs. It is a digital Mixwiz with FX and dynamics. I think that is the exact market they aimed at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members twostone Posted October 17, 2011 Members Share Posted October 17, 2011 In my last 300 gigs since going digital, I have had only one time, ONE TIME, that anyone asked if I ever recorded the shows. It is absolutely irrelevant to me to be able to record. If it could do 700 tracks at Studer or better quality, I wouldn't pay an extra $5 for it. I do want a workflow I appreciate, rock solid performance, a feature set that meets my requirements for the work I do, and a decent interface. The console will only be used for live FOH, ever. I don't and won't ever record, not interested in it, and no one could afford to make me interested in it ($$$.) Didn't ask if your recorded on yours just stated that it's a popular mixer with the adat HD community. I know Jeff from the adat HD community you couldn't pay enough to mix a live band on his mixer. Different strokes for different folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Axisplayer Posted October 17, 2011 Members Share Posted October 17, 2011 That comment was a general response to the discussion in a live sound forum of how much the recording aspect influenced people when buying this console. Not for you twostone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members carlstretch Posted October 17, 2011 Members Share Posted October 17, 2011 I'm going to dive head first into this discussion. I have a day job and play guitar in my band as a way to have fun, jam with my wife onstage and hopefully make a little money. I am in no way, shape or form any sort of sound engineer. I'm a guitarist/singer with a PA for my band. The StudioLive just happens to be the "best" mixer solution for me and my band. We play about 25 shows a year and I will occasionally get hired out by friends in other bands to bring my PA and run sound for them. I also want to be able to record every show we play. My choice was between a MixWiz and the SL. The recording feature and wireless ability is what sold me on the SL. The "friendly" debate between AgedHorse and Abzurd is kind of puzzling to me. When I saw AgedHorse's thread on his review/issues with the SL a few weeks ago,... And I mean no disrespect to you Andy,... but I didn't even read it. I knew that your level of investigation into the SL would have no bearing on my decision. And frankly,... I'm pretty sure that I would have had to take a graduate level electrical engineering course-load to even be able to understand what you had discovered. So,.. when I see Abzurd, Dale and others talk about their SL boards,... I do read those. Honestly,.. I just want the SL to work. Turn on the power,... the band plays,... we sound good,... I get a beer or 2,... Get paid from the client,.. we record the band,... Trailer it all up,.. drive home and unload it into my practice room. Then sit around with my buddies and laugh about how 3 average guys can have so much fun playing music. This might be a far too nonchalant approach to take but I don't want to have to understand the details and internal workings of the mixer other than how to perform the tasks I need to. I just think both of you are coming from totally different aspects of the industry and user level. You both (AgedHorse and Abzurd) have great comments regarding the SL but unfortunately my attention usually goes towards Abzurd's comments. That being said,.... If I was a professional sound engineer and my survival depended on a detailed knowledge base of sound reinforcement,... I would be having many conversations with AgedHorse. I always compare this kind of discussion to my world. I work by day as a Petroleum Geologist. I have a Master's Degree and have worked my tail off to understand most aspects of my industry. I probably get 10 phone calls a year from friends or relatives wanting to get in the oil & gas business. Usually they want to find out what it takes to get a drill rig on their property and get an oil well going. It's that easy,.. right?? Well I love to see their eyes glaze over as I start to tell them about what to do before you even start to become involved. It usually takes about 7-10 minutes before they stop me. They don't understand what I'm even talking about and I can't believe that they don't want to understand what I do every day. (I mean they asked me how to get an oil well,... right???) Then I give them a number of a drilling company and tell them to have access to $300,000. Then make sure you can get an additional $300,000 in case something goes wrong. You see,.... I'm that guy in the sound reinforcement world. I just want to drill a well. LOL. I just felt that I had to chime in. Boy,.. how stupid of me. Rock on !!!!! Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted October 17, 2011 Members Share Posted October 17, 2011 I'd be quite interested to hear what anomalies on AH's "list" were fixed in this update? And my opinion of the SL is that it the best choice of Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gspointer Posted October 17, 2011 Members Share Posted October 17, 2011 I'd be quite interested to hear what anomalies on AH's "list" were fixed in this update?And my opinion of the SL is that it the best choice of Sub 2,500, I like the Yamaha 01V96, but, that may be a bit tougher yet for the non-techie types. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted October 17, 2011 CMS Author Share Posted October 17, 2011 You are a f*cking ankle-biter DJ (hint... your event calander on your website says it all... Karaoke gigs, and the SLX wireless is the best money can buy (bull{censored} on bull{censored}), you come here to a live sound forum and bitch about somebody who has been working professionally in this industry for over 30 years AND designing poducts for the same industry. Andy, This was uncalled for. You know personal insults don't fly here. PureSoundEnt, You instigated this. Your posts are much more about attacking Andy than about discussing issues with this mixer. That makes what you wrote a personal attack. Read the rules; this is not that type of forum. Be respectful, or be gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PureSoundEnt Posted October 17, 2011 Members Share Posted October 17, 2011 Andy, This was uncalled for. You know personal insults don't fly here. PureSoundEnt, You instigated this. Your posts are much more about attacking Andy than about discussing issues with this mixer. That makes what you wrote a personal attack. Read the rules; this is not that type of forum. Be respectful, or be gone. No problem. I didn't realize I attacked him. I thought I just gave my viewpoint from a new person's perspective on his posts. I can just ignore him from now on if you'll allow me to stay here. I am not into attacking people on the internet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted October 17, 2011 CMS Author Share Posted October 17, 2011 No problem. I didn't realize I attacked him. Please, spare the bull{censored}. You knew exactly what you were doing. If you didn't then you REALLY shouldn't post here anymore. As a word of advice: you've got 6 posts here, and already you've pissed off a long time respected regular, been warned by the moderator, and now have my attention. You don't want my attention this early in the game. Maybe spend more lurking time getting a feel for the culture of the place before you make your first posts a diatribe of complaints against someone whose probably forgotten more than you and me will ever know about the industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 17, 2011 Members Share Posted October 17, 2011 Sorry Craig and Pure Sound, my comment was uncalled for... I went for the bait. My appologies. My point was that somebody outside the field of live production audio (I don't consider the typical DJ or Karoke guy as being a pro audio application and in fact there is a competely seperate catagory in the trade numbers for this catagory) making rude and insuinating comments as though they were knowledgable in the field when a simple link to their own website shows otherwise is insulting to some of us here. The SL in fact might be THE ideal mixer for Pure Sound, but to discredit me for not getting it and not understanding the market that I have been working is at a professional level for 30 years is laughable. In fact, it shows how diswconnected he is with the applications of pro audio as a general industry. Today's band arrived w/ 2 busses and a 53' tractor-trailer. It's production manager hat today. I see all sides, all kinds of gear and all levels. For today's show, for example, an M7 would not be enough of a console and in fact would be considered a "toy" or a backup console in spite of the fact that I think it's one of the best mid-level consoles on the market. For today's show it would be a poor choice. It's all about understanding limitations and applications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dcastar Posted October 17, 2011 Members Share Posted October 17, 2011 Today's band arrived w/ 2 busses and a 53' tractor-trailer. It's production manager hat today. I see all sides, all kinds of gear and all levels. For today's show, for example, an M7 would not be enough of a console and in fact would be considered a "toy" or a backup console in spite of the fact that I think it's one of the best mid-level consoles on the market. For today's show it would be a poor choice. It's all about understanding limitations and applications. Sounds like a job for the Behringer EURODESK! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stix 518 Posted October 17, 2011 Members Share Posted October 17, 2011 I'm with Carlstretch... I can absolutely see myself in his post. Gotta wonder how many of "us" are out there, hundreds? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Bet Presonus has a pretty good idea... it's called Market Research. You know, the old "build a better mousetrap" scenario. The R&D on this had to be big bucks even with their already extensive digital product line. I can't think of any company that would invest that amount of time and money into something that they didn't think would sell or that there wasn't a ready made market for (Solyndra notwithstanding ).Yes, AH is looking at it from a completely different perspective than Carlstretch and I (and many others) are. It's a whole different ballgame - and installs are nothing like what we do (in my estimation, the SL would be a lousy install - too many moving parts (analogy) - whereas I think the Mixwiz would be a homerun just about every time - it really is a great board).I too appreciate the recording ability of the SL - the complete opposite of Axisplayer - but we both use (and enjoy using) digital boards. Different strokes for different folks.Great debate! I love dialing into threads like this one... the opportunity to learn something is best when people are passionate about the topic and their positions on same. Thanks to all!Stix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 18, 2011 Members Share Posted October 18, 2011 Sounds like a job for the Behringer EURODESK! Yeah, one for each channel, that way there are at least 23 back-up channels on each input for the remote possibility of a ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted October 18, 2011 Members Share Posted October 18, 2011 Ok, My take on the SL from a personal perspective .....If the SL had been available when I purchased my MixWiz, I would have gone with the MixWiz. Here is why: I don't know if the reverbs on the SL would actually satisfy me now since I am accustomed to the excellent verbs I get from the TC Electronics M-OneXL, but I would surely be willing to give them a shot.That having been said, I love my MixWiz DX2. It sounds terrific, the channel eq is great with 2 sweepable mids, and the 6 auxes allow me a great in-ear setup with 4 independent mixes (I use the 2 post fader auxes for efx).If you figure up the butchers bill on my MixWiz rig:ITEM ----------------------- Price MixWiz --------------------- $1000.00M-OneXL ------------------- $400.00ACP88 ---------------------- $400.00Art HQ15 Eq ---------------- $400.00Furman Power Conditioner - $100.00Connection Cables ---------- $100.0021 space rack --------------- $400.00Delta 1010 rack portion ---- $400.00#######################Furman in-ear system (1 spc)Denon CD/MP3 player (2 spc)So the total of replaceable parts would be around $3200. Now, I would still need some kind of a rack, but a much smaller one. I would also need some cabling, and I may decide I need the M-OneXL. So overall, I would probably be under my current investment if SL had been available. I would not need a PC to record (I didn't add the PC portion since I don't do it that often), and I would get all the positives of the SL.Now, could someone tell me the negatives of the SL (assuming I would be able to operate the device without issues). I believe Abzurd actually went from a MixWiz to a SL. I don't see him going back, so there must be something alright about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 6Imzadi Posted October 18, 2011 Members Share Posted October 18, 2011 I think you meant to say you would have gone with the SL in your first sentence. Unless I read your post wrong. From that perspective, I most certainly would have gone with the SL. Not to mention having to connect all that stuff, know how to troubleshoot if something goes wrong or a cable goes out. Also, knowing how to use it all is another story. Then, to see the gate, you have to bend down or crouch low and hope you remember which channel it is assigned to. As far as negatives go; There are a few things I can think of that I find to be high on that list.1) I really want a new dual band "N" router because the line 6 mic I just got makes the iPad flake out and not work.2) There is no tap tempo on the iPad app.3) I don't have to pull out my snake and try to find a place for FOHwait, #3 is a positive. Nevermind.3) No. That's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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