micing small amps

[mbengs1]

i heard you can mic a small amp during big gigs like in stadiums or arenas. will this sound as good or as powerful as using big stacks of hi wattage amps? like if you have a 1x12 peavey classic 30 miced up and going through the monitor speakers?. will this sound just as good as its big brothers, the hundred watt half stacks in live situations ?

[onthee brink]

I Play with lots of guys who show up to gigs with just a small 12" combo and have it mic'd. It sounds fine and they aren't dealing with the hassle of a stack. Are you looking to play shows with a small amp? As long as there is a decent sound system you should be fine and most sound engineers prefer the stage volume to be low so they can get a better room mix. The only time you need a big amp is when you are in a large room with a loud drummer and simple PA for only vocals. I think Dave Murray from Iron Maiden did a lot of his shows in the 80's with just a combo. The Black Crows have all kinds of small combos on their stage mic'd up as well. So yeah, why not. It's all about what you want to sound like. If you really want to get into what the big pros are doing check out the rig rundowns by premier guitar on youtube. You'll see all kinds of different ways of doing it.

[WRGKMC]

Its all about stage volume and monitoring. If you roam around on a big stage away from the monitors a small amp isn't going to project much sound across the stage. Louder amps have the advantage of not having to be miced, at least until you get to larger arena sized venues.

 

My opinion is you only need to have the same volume you use to rehearse with. If you can get by with rehearsing with a 15/20/30W amp you can do the same live IF you have a decent pa and most importantly a sound man who knows how to get a good stage and mains mix.

 

This is an important factor because you need allot of PA gear to fully mic a band and have it sound right. There's allot of factors to weight against all of all that PA gear, the extra vehicles to haul it all, The time it takes to move setup sound check and break down a big sound system, The manpower carrying all that stuff, Complexity of setting it up, The purchase or rental cost of the gear, Hiring someone to set it up and run it properly are all factors you have to figure in.

 

Most bands don't haul a big system to small clubs. You simply don't need it. When patron are yelling at a bartender at the top of their lungs because the bands too loud. You're playing a big outdoor gig with thousands of people, or large stadiums you can always rent systems and people to run them for those gigs

 

If you only have one singer playing smaller clubs and only making minimum money (another big factor) why haul a huge system to a gig and not being paid for all that extra work. Simply use a louder amp and even possibly an open backed combo so the drummer can hear you without monitors and run just the vocals through the PA. If you're going to mic the amp, you usually have to mic everything else to get a good balance.

 

Back in the 70's I used to play the circuits on the Jersey shore and NY we rented a pretty good system for about $250 a month. Then paid a sound guy $75 a night to run it. We often had to rent a truck to haul it which was another $125 and we'd gig at least 3 night a week. The guitarists used small combo amps that were miced. The band was lucky to make $75 a man in a 5 piece band but at least it was regular work.

 

We could have bought our own system and run it o0urselces and not had to pay all that extra money out but playing the larger clubs, having a good sound system and a man to run was a requirement in those days. Clubs like the Stone Pony in Asbury for example would pack people in so tight you could barely move. The audience was expecting a certain sound and if the band tried to come in with some Rinky Dink Tinker Toy PA system you'd not only be laughed at but you'd be ushered out before you finished setting up.

 

Like anything there are things you need to learn before you even try to get jobs like that. you don't get to know them unless you get out there and strat networking with other players who play those gigs. The bands that have the biggest following will likely have the setups you want if you plan on playing that venue. The really big Venues often have House systems bands tie into. They have pro sound guys who work for sound companies who know those system.

 

Keep this in mind. In a really big stadium like a Reliant stadium that holds tens of thousands of people. Its not going to matter if you're using a small amp or a wall of stacks. That sound is going to bounce around so much before it gets to the audience its going to be completely washed out before you hear it. They have to mice it then send the miced sound to localized cabinet arrays that hang from the ceiling and project sound to separate sections of the audience. All the mic is going to pick up is one speaker - that's it. All those other cabs do nothing but create a huge backwash and blur of sound unless you're right out there in front of the band. Many times those cabs you see with big bands are simply props too. They aren't even plugged in, you just think they are.

[mbengs1]

I Play with lots of guys who show up to gigs with just a small 12" combo and have it mic'd. It sounds fine and they aren't dealing with the hassle of a stack. Are you looking to play shows with a small amp? As long as there is a decent sound system you should be fine and most sound engineers prefer the stage volume to be low so they can get a better room mix. The only time you need a big amp is when you are in a large room with a loud drummer and simple PA for only vocals. I think Dave Murray from Iron Maiden did a lot of his shows in the 80's with just a combo. The Black Crows have all kinds of small combos on their stage mic'd up as well. So yeah' date=' why not. It's all about what you want to sound like. If you really want to get into what the big pros are doing check out the rig rundowns by premier guitar on youtube. You'll see all kinds of different ways of doing it.[/quote']

 

I don't really play live coz i don't have a band. but i wonder if a combo would sound just as good as a big head and cab if the combo was miced. i know some bands that do this and i really can't tell the difference when theyre using a amp stack or a combo.

[daddymack]

Really, the days of needing a stack to be heard past the first row are long gone. Which, as a former Marshal half-stack user, is a good thing, IMHO. Mic-ing may go the way of the dodo as well, as more and more amps have line out jacks, and amp sim software improves exponentially every few years. Many great guitarists, as WRGKMC stated, use a small cobo hidden away behind the impressive wall of 4x12 cabs, typically not real [like GC used to use as wall hanger backing...]. A small amp, 5-30W will, properly set and correctly mic-ed, give you what a Marshall stack will...with a good sound engineer riding herd on it. Most great recordings were not made with stacks, they were done on low wattage combos.

[Phil O'Keefe]

i heard you can mic a small amp during big gigs like in stadiums or arenas. will this sound as good or as powerful as using big stacks of hi wattage amps? like if you have a 1x12 peavey classic 30 miced up and going through the monitor speakers?. will this sound just as good as its big brothers' date=' the hundred watt half stacks in live situations ?[/quote']

 

Compared to a 10,000W PA system, the difference between a 100W and a 30W amp is pretty negligible.

 

A good sounding amp that is miked up and running through a good PA will blow the doors off of any stack in terms of power and volume. It's not even remotely close. As to whether or not it will sound "better", that's entirely subjective, but if you start with a great sounding small amp, you'll probably be very pleased with the sound.

 

[Verne Andru]

Don't overlook a good DI box either. I've a-b'd micing vs a passive DI off the external speaker output and find the DI has slightly better tone and I don't have to worry about room noise or feedback. I think I paid under $20 for my DI on a blow out sale.

[FrankenTelly]

The big amp versus small amp debate is actually a lot more critical for bass player than guitar players. You can mic a small guitar amp with good results if you have good professional grade stage monitoring and PA systems. Large outdoor gigs and huge stadiums are of course the worse.

 

But even a medium sized venue with an anemic bass amp can be hell to deal with if the drummer and the rest of the band can't synch up with the bass player properly because of the real possibility that a gutless stage monitor mix is being delivered to you (a common problem when I gig out second only to various feedback problems). If the dude behind the mixing desk ain't gonna get it right, or the stage monitors are tiny, the bass player and his 300 or 400 watts can easily make up for deficiency. Otherwise 40 watts and a 2x12 for electric guitar is enough unless you are doing a large outside concert or a stadium concert (a problem I can only dream of having ).

 

 

[mbengs1]

So miking a 20 watt 1x12 combo can sound as good as a 100 watt tube head with a 4x12 cabinet?

[daddymack]

absolutely, if going into a good PA...and it is easier to haul!

[WRGKMC]

So miking a 20 watt 1x12 combo can sound as good as a 100 watt tube head with a 4x12 cabinet?

 

Its not quite that simple. A low wattage amp, especially a tube amp may use different power tubes and have a preamp voiced to drive those tubes. Its transformer and saturation are going to be different in many cases. If you do use a lower wattage amp you have to run it cleaner, not wide open or its going to take on the character of a small amp driven.

 

That's not to say that isn't a good sound but its a matter of dynamic punch you're trying to copy. Higher wattage amps have allot of clean headroom and therefore a big clean punch. The large cabs have allot of air inside them and create a large footprint. An 8" speaker in and open backed cab isn't going to produce that thump very well.

 

You can however get very close by running a low wattage amp clean and using an amp modeler pedal which can duplicate larger amp cab impulses and EQ the amps speaker to sound larger then it actually is. You simply have to know how to tweak the small amp to sound big so when its miced its sounds bigger then it actually is

 

Different amp manufacturers do a better job at this too. I can easily mic my little 15W Marshall and get it to sound like my 100W head and 1960 cab. It wont have the low end thump but because its voiced the same I can get pretty darn close. If I were trying to make my 15W Fender Champ sound like my 50W Blackfaced Bassman It would be more difficult unless I help it using some modeling. The amps are from different eras and had different tone stacks. I'd have to sculpt to sound to be close.

 

If I used my Peavey Studio One and tried to get it to sound like a Marshall, I couldn't do it without some major sculpting because the tone stacks are way different. I've gotten close using a modeling pedal but even then the Peavey has mids and highs and gain presence that just don't avail themselves to sounding like a Marshall. The speaker too makes it difficult to overcome the differences. I could more easily copy a 5150 then a Marshall Plexi for sure.

 

So your answer is - it can be done. It can be done more easily using an amp brand of the same type, and especially something newer that's got the sound of the big brother you're trying to copy. Otherwise you have to rely on amp modeling gear which may take allot of tweaking. Of course having that small amp side by side with the big brother so you can use an A/B comparison is always best. Otherwise you have no idea just how close you have to be. You have to take the Mic, the room and PA's coloration in as a factor too. That's hard to do if you don't have a comparison to work with and dial up a small amp to sound like its big brother.

[Phil O'Keefe]

So true Daddymack!

[Phil O'Keefe]

So miking a 20 watt 1x12 combo can sound as good as a 100 watt tube head with a 4x12 cabinet?

 

Again, the wattage difference between those two amps is negligible compared to the difference between either one of them and a decent PA system.

 

To answer this question, we'd have to first ask, which rig sounds better - the 20W 1x12 or the 100W head and 4x12 cabinet? What speakers are the rigs loaded with? That will make a big difference too.

 

Wattage and number of speakers isn't everything. Frankly, I'd rather have a nice 20W tube combo with a nice speaker in it vs a 100W Marshall MG series with el cheapo speakers in the 4x12 cabinet. YMMV

 

Remember too, that in a medium to large venue, even that 100W half-stack rig is going to get miked up. No matter if it's the better sounding rig of the two or not, it lacks sufficient power to compete with a drum set that's miked up and being reinforced by a 10,000 watt PA system.

 

And typically, only one of those speakers in the 4x12 cab is going to be miked up...