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I am retiring my old PA to the rehearsal studio and looking at getting something a bit newer. The old PA has done incredibly well for being about +20 years old, it consists of two Peavey cabs each with a 15" speaker and a horn along with a 400W Mosfet type Peavey power amp. I use a Mackie Onyx series mixer long with an Alesis Midiverb3 for effects and a really nice compressor, (because my last singer had no idea how to use a mic).

 

We play smaller clubs, parties and few "not so big" outdoor events. I think the old Peavey cabs have a rating of 400W each - and they've always been loud enough for what we do, (although sometimes barely).

 

Here is what I'm looking at: Two QSC K series for the fronts, two or three Mackie thumps for the monitors. I'll keep the Mackie Onyx series mixer. I might upgrade the effects. I don't plan on adding a sub.

 

So my questions are: 1. What are the pros / cons with getting the 15's verses 12's, (both on the monitors and the fronts)? 2. I'm looking at spending somewhere around $3k or so - is there something else I should be looking at?

 

We don't usually put anything other than vocals through the PA - although I would like to be able to add the instruments if I needed it. I'm looking for simplicity and a decent performing PA. I appreciate any help you can offer before I make the deal. Thanks!

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15s CAN go lower usually which helps you with the no subs situation. 12s generally sound better for vocals. Even if you went with 15s for FOH, I would not use 15s for the monitors since they are usually to help you hear the vocals primarily.

 

Older cabinets usually were every efficient and got loud on little power. Modern cabinets generally require more power to get to same SPL because manufacturers like to use the ratings game to sell their gear, and because watts used to cost a lot and they don't now. Thats not always true but I find it generally is. You should expect that 400 watts today won't get you a lot of SPL for FOH.

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Forget the Mackie Thumps! They are a waste of time and are 150 watts rms LF and 50 watts rms HF with a sensitivity of 94 db1w1m.

 

You can fart louder than those and they are muddy in the midrange. Cheap speakers sound CHEAP!

 

 

As nice as the QSC K series is, you will be much better off with four or five RFC 312As that you can EQ the same, so that you will really know what you sound like out front.

 

They can be had for about $500 each, and they sound great.

 

Four of those are also great for a large gig if you rent Subwoofers.

 

Thiis solution is much more versatile and you will have matching spares if you are only using a pair of them as mains, should something fail. Multiples of the same speakers do have their advantages.

 

That is my view of it.

 

Cheers!

 

YMMV

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Forget the Mackie Thumps! They are a waste of time and are 150 watts rms LF and 50 watts rms HF with a sensitivity of 94 db1w1m.


You can fart louder than those and they are muddy in the midrange. Cheap speakers sound CHEAP!



As nice as the QSC K series is, you will be much better off with four or five RFC 312As that you can EQ the same, so that you will really know what you sound like out front.


They can be had for about $500 each, and they sound great.


Four of those are also great for a large gig if you rent Subwoofers.


Thiis solution is much more versatile and you will have matching spares if you are only using a pair of them as mains, should something fail. Multiples of the same speakers do have their advantages.


That is my view of it.


Cheers!


YMMV

 

 

I've read various opinions on the Mackie Thumps - some good, some not so good. The biggest compliant seems to be that some of them have early failure.

 

I'm not a sound guy, but I've always eq'd the monitors a little bit "thin" so they don't compete so much with the back line and hopefully, we can hear the vocals over the top without getting incredibly loud - and having feedback problems etc. That said I can see that "eq"ing the monitors the same as the fronts might give us a better idea of the overall sound we are producing.

 

How loud are the ART 312A's compared to the QSC's? I see the amplification is 300W vs 1000W for the QSC's.

 

Thanks!

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1000w is just marketing gimmick.

 

The ART's are very capable speakers... and you'll find very few negative reviews on them.

 

The QSC K's are great in certain situations as well, although I much prefer the KW line. That said, we have a pair of K10's for monitor duty and they serve the job quite well.

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Don't get caught up in the marketing game by judging speakers by their wattages. It means nothing since the manufacturers don't all use the same method of measurement. The quality of sound is more important. To my ears, the 312As are a much better sounding cab. They should also be plenty loud for your needs.

 

Personally, if I was planning on micing kick or bass I would add subs. If that was impossible I'd opt for the 15s and I'd put very little kick and bass in the mix. If I got subs I'd use 12s over them. You didn't mention a budget but your choices are on the low end. A little more cash would go a long way towards better gear. I also suggest getting matching mains & monitors. 4 12s and a sub would be a great little main & mon system.

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I've read various opinions on the Mackie Thumps - some good, some not so good. The biggest compliant seems to be that some of them have early failure.


I'm not a sound guy, but I've always eq'd the monitors a little bit "thin" so they don't compete so much with the back line and hopefully, we can hear the vocals over the top without getting incredibly loud - and having feedback problems etc. That said I can see that "eq"ing the monitors the same as the fronts might give us a better idea of the overall sound we are producing.


How loud are the ART 312A's compared to the QSC's? I see the amplification is 300W vs 1000W for the QSC's.

Thanks!

 

 

 

They are about the same.

 

You have to read the fine print on the QSC website!

 

This is what it says:

 

1 For comparison purposes and in accordance with common industry practice, maximum peak SPL specifications are theoretical calculations based upon transducer sensitivity and peak available amplifier power.

 

The QSC K series will never see the 1000 watts rms/2000 watts peak in real time usage. What they are saying is that if you take the 2000 watts which is a 33 db gain and add it to the sensitivity figure of 98 db 1w1m it will all ad up to the mythical 131 db of the K12. In reality the speaker would lose 3-4 db from compression losses caused by that much power which brings it back to the 127 db that the RCF will be close to.

 

The available watts mean nothing since neither transducer will ever see 1000 watts peak each and will be limited by an algorithym and limiting.

 

THEORETICAL BS is what that line is!

 

That is like saying that I have a 400 rms rated speaker that has a sensitivity figure of 99 db 1w1m and a 4000 watt rms amp but I am going to set the limiter at 400 watts rms. So theoretically there is a 39 db gain because the peak power is 8000 watts.

 

So 99 plus 39 is 138 db!!!!

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Don't get caught up in the marketing game by judging speakers by their wattages. It means nothing since the manufacturers don't all use the same method of measurement. The quality of sound is more important. To my ears, the 312As are a much better sounding cab. They should also be plenty loud for your needs.


Personally, if I was planning on micing kick or bass I would add subs. If that was impossible I'd opt for the 15s and I'd put very little kick and bass in the mix. If I got subs I'd use 12s over them. You didn't mention a budget but your choices are on the low end. A little more cash would go a long way towards better gear. I also suggest getting matching mains & monitors. 4 12s and a sub would be a great little main & mon system.

 

 

I understand the wattage / SPL thing .... the game has been played for years by just about everyone in the audio industry. I have an 18W 2x12 amp that smokes my 100W 2x12 Marshall for volume ... and the Marshall is pretty damn loud.

 

One of the problems I have is that I've heard the QSC's in the store and they sounded really good but I have no other personal experience with them. I really don't know how they will work out gigging. The same with the ART's - first I've heard of them, although, based on the comments here, they seem to have a very good rep. Not sure where I could find them other than on line though. I don't think GC or SA carries them.

 

I said my budget was around 3K - that's not necessarily hard and fast - it's just what I think I will end up spending. Could be more could be less.

 

Thanks!

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Forget the Mackie Thumps! They are a waste of time and are 150 watts rms LF and 50 watts rms HF with a sensitivity of 94 db1w1m.


You can fart louder than those and they are muddy in the midrange. Cheap speakers sound CHEAP!



As nice as the QSC K series is, you will be much better off with four or five RFC 312As that you can EQ the same, so that you will really know what you sound like out front.


They can be had for about $500 each, and they sound great.


Four of those are also great for a large gig if you rent Subwoofers.


Thiis solution is much more versatile and you will have matching spares if you are only using a pair of them as mains, should something fail. Multiples of the same speakers do have their advantages.


That is my view of it.


Cheers!


YMMV

 

 

Actully you can get RFC 321A's for $400 a pop here http://www.ebay.com/itm/RCF-ART-312A-Active-Powered-Speaker-ART312A-PAIR-/280756286245?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415e60f325

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Another vote for the RCF 312As. Don't worry about the watts, they will get as loud as the ''1000 watt'' QSCs but actually sound better doing it IMO and also sound better at high volumes. The QSC's have a better mixer section and warranty though. If you are in the US, the 312As can be had for 400$ a piece, which makes them (again IMO) the highest quality, best sounding powered speakers you can buy at that price. Forget about the Thumps. They'll spend more time with their limit light blinking than anything else and will quickly develop rattles or some other problem or failure recent Mackie products are becoming known for... Anyway, you can't go wrong with either the QSC K or RCF ART - both are excellent performers. The RCF is just a better value if you can get them at the 400$ price.

 

Al

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Another vote for the RCF's. Simply the best bang for the buck going. You can probably get away with the 310A's for monitors. It's what my band uses and they can get pretty darn loud. I occasionally use the 310A's for mains over subs, but normal FOH speakers are 500 series RCF's and were around $1300 each. If you're not thinking subs in the future then maybe go with the 315A, a bit heavier, but exact same enclosure as the 312A.

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Another vote for the RCF's. Simply the best bang for the buck going. You can probably get away with the 310A's for monitors. It's what my band uses and they can get pretty darn loud. I occasionally use the 310A's for mains over subs, but normal FOH speakers are 500 series RCF's and were around $1300 each.
If you're not thinking subs in the future then maybe go with the 315A
, a bit heavier, but exact same enclosure as the 312A.

 

 

The 312A actually has better low frequency than the 315A if you recall - mostly because of the same enclosure being used and being slightly too small for the 15'' to breathe properly and affecting its response in the process. A rare occasion where a 12'' outperforms the 15'' version of a speaker (in the same line). This actually affects 312A, 315A, 322A, 325A, 522A AND 525A as the same enclosure was used for ALL of these models...

 

Al

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The 312A actually has better low frequency than the 315A if you recall - mostly because of the same enclosure being used and being slightly too small for the 15'' to breathe properly and affecting its response in the process. A rare occasion where a 12'' outperforms the 15'' version of a speaker (in the same line). This actually affects 312A, 315A, 322A, 325A, 522A AND 525A as the same enclosure was used for ALL of these models...


Al

 

 

OK, I think you guys have sold me on 312A's ... I guess I'll pick up a couple to demo them and then add two or three more. I do like the flexibility idea of being able to double up the mains or push a monitor to the mains if one of them fails. Thanks for all the advice.

 

Do you guys have any advice on something to replace my midiverb & compressor with? I see these "all in one" units, (dbx driverack?), that seem to have all everything in one package plus auto eq and feedback limitation.

 

Thanks!

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The 312A actually has better low frequency than the 315A if you recall - mostly because of the same enclosure being used and being slightly too small for the 15'' to breathe properly and affecting its response in the process. A rare occasion where a 12'' outperforms the 15'' version of a speaker (in the same line). This actually affects 312A, 315A, 322A, 325A, 522A AND 525A as the same enclosure was used for ALL of these models...


Al

 

 

 

True, I've actually touted that here before. The box is a bit small for a 15" driver.

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OK, I think you guys have sold me on 312A's ... I guess I'll pick up a couple to demo them and then add two or three more. I do like the flexibility idea of being able to double up the mains or push a monitor to the mains if one of them fails. Thanks for all the advice.


Do you guys have any advice on something to replace my midiverb & compressor with? I see these "all in one" units, (dbx driverack?), that seem to have all everything in one package plus auto eq and feedback limitation.


Thanks!

 

 

Driverack is for system tuning and speaker zoning not really something IMO you would benefit a whole from. I think some Peavey EQ's with the FB lights that has the blinking LED's red lights giving you a visual of the FB frequency would be a heck of lot better choice. As far as the midiveb goes the SE that mixed for Destiny's Child used a midiverb on their material back in the day.

No their not Lexicon or TC but good enough to be used on a multi platinum album was good enough for me.

Not sure what comps you use but for me I only comp my bass because I have a heavy right hand playing style which helps keep it tame down if I get to excited.

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Driverack is for system tuning and speaker zoning not really something IMO you would benefit a whole from. I think some Peavey EQ's with the FB lights that has the blinking LED's red lights giving you a visual of the FB frequency would be a heck of lot better choice. As far as the midiveb goes the SE that mixed for Destiny's Child used a midiverb on their material back in the day.

No their not Lexicon or TC but good enough to be used on a multi platinum album was good enough for me.

Not sure what comps you use but for me I only comp my bass because I have a heavy right hand playing style which helps keep it tame down if I get to excited.

 

 

I looked at the Peavey compressors .. you must be talking about a QF 131 with FLS? I think they're about ~$200 each?

 

The compressor I use is a stereo RNC. I put it on the mains out the back of the mixer. I really only used it because my singer was pretty bad at knowing when to get on a mic and when to pull back ... so the compressor helped squash things a little and helped get the vocals on top. I have a new singer - I don't think I'll have the same problems, but I'll probably still use the compressor.

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Thanks. I just pulled the trigger on two pairs / four units. $1,578 delivered - pretty good considering the QSC K12's are ~$850 each + tax etc.

 

Man, I wish we could get these amazing prices on RCF stuff here in Canada. I really don't understand the reason for the HUGE difference. It's like RCF decided to make this deal for the 310A and 312A only for US buyers. We do have a distributor in Canada and they are now selling the more cost effective MKII modes (without EQ settings and remote) yet the same old price is still in effect. :mad:

 

Lowest price you can find for the 312As in Canada is 700$ per cabinet. :eek: Actually 700$ per cabinet is what I paid for my first set of 310As. I paid 620$ per cabinet for my second pair.

 

Al

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Man,
I wish we could get these amazing prices on RCF stuff here in Canada.
I really don't understand the reason for the HUGE difference. It's like RCF decided to make this deal for the 310A and 312A only for US buyers. We do have a distributor in Canada and they are now selling the more cost effective MKII modes (without EQ settings and remote) yet the same old price is still in effect.
:mad:

Lowest price you can find for the 312As in Canada is 700$ per cabinet.
:eek:
Actually 700$ per cabinet is what I paid for my first set of 310As. I paid 620$ per cabinet for my second pair.


Al

 

Al, Why not buy in the U.S.? It's often a lot easier than you might think, and often, a lot less expensive.

 

When I'm looking for a deal here in Canada, I'll often bring a print-out of a deal I've seen on the internet, and show it to the local dealer. I've been able to get some reasonably fair pricing using that strategy.

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Man, I wish we could get these amazing prices on RCF stuff here in Canada. I really don't understand the reason for the HUGE difference. It's like RCF decided to make this deal for the 310A and 312A only for US buyers. We do have a distributor in Canada and they are now selling the more cost effective MKII modes (without EQ settings and remote) yet the same old price is still in effect.
:mad:

Lowest price you can find for the 312As in Canada is 700$ per cabinet.
:eek:
Actually 700$ per cabinet is what I paid for my first set of 310As. I paid 620$ per cabinet for my second pair.


Al

 

Well Al as much as you like to support your local supplier and I do the same, there is a point where you need to jump on ebay.com and consider the differences of doing so in dollars and cents.

 

There is NO reason with the dollar where it is that we should be paying these price differences. The Peavey dealer here in TO sells the IPR series amps for what they would cost in the USA plus shipping.

 

There is no duty across the US border due to NAFTA and you will pay shipping and taxes only.

 

 

Been there done that.....many times.

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I guess it's because I always worry what would happen if they required servicing... Would the warranty be honored? I imagine I would have to ship them back to the US and possibly have to pay return shipping as well. I don't know. There is a pair on EBAY at 800$ a pair + 100$ USPS shipping. (I usually avoid brokerage/duty fees with USPS). It is tempting...

 

Al

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