Members agedhorse Posted October 30, 2011 Members Share Posted October 30, 2011 you seem to have some very strange ideas about audio, such as keeping your faders low and trim hot. dont think like that; run the trim down where it needs to be and run the faders up where they need to be. Which I suspect is the root cause of the problem. I have tried explaining but it deosn't seem to help much. Just generates a new set of questions about another piece of gear or goofy way to do something. There's a lot of good information here on this forum in old threads, I suggest that the OP spend some quality time reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted October 31, 2011 Members Share Posted October 31, 2011 Here's another issue: the S-200 is basically a verb/delay unit, and a pretty good one at that. The thing it doesn't do well is compression. Basically the user interface is terrible for adjusting parameters ect with the compressor effect. Add to it that a verb/delay unit is what's called a "parallel effect" (connected to the aux sends and returns to a channel or other input unrelated to the source). The compressor function is a "serial" effect: the signal chain is exactly mic into XLR input of board, insert cable plugged into the insert of that channal (and only that 1 channel), signal is then routed back to that mixer channel and only that mixer channel via the insert cable. Question: are you plugging the mic directly into the S200 or into a channel on the board? What cables are being used? The best advice I can give is to buy a decent 2 channel compressor with 2 insert cables and leave the S200 for verb duty only. Read up on how a comp works and spend some time at home with a mic/comp/mixer/speaker and learn how a comp actually works. Every bit of compression used will reduce the gain-before-feedback ratio, meaning your wedges won't be able to be as loud because of the compressor. Its a bad thing. Compression needs to be very carefully applied or accidents will happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted October 31, 2011 Members Share Posted October 31, 2011 Not sure exactly what the issue is - but on one rig I run I have a keyboard amp DI out that is too hot for the mixwiz they have and I originally used an inline 20db XLR pad on it but now run the signal directly into a compressor and thence into the mixwiz line input. In this particular instance that makes sense as it also puts the monitor feeds post compressor as I want them on keys (the mixwiz's monitor feeds are normally pre-insert) but other than this very special case using the compressor on the insert is the "normal" way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Musicman717 Posted October 31, 2011 Author Members Share Posted October 31, 2011 Which I suspect is the root cause of the problem. I have tried explaining but it deosn't seem to help much. Just generates a new set of questions about another piece of gear or goofy way to do something. There's a lot of good information here on this forum in old threads, I suggest that the OP spend some quality time reading. it probably is the root problem, I can't truely understand how it works all i know is that when i DO read articles on it, it tells me in some sense different that what anyone else tells me so i really don't know what to believe at times. the articles that i read on the net will tell me that it's ok for the clip light to flicker but not stay on all the time, but then i'll talk to others ( not just ya'll but other people that does sound) and they will tell me no don't let it flicker at all. ok , i get that you are not supposed to let it stay on , that is a bad thing, i get it , but the thing that puzzles me is that is it or is it not supposed to flicker on signal peaks. that's what really puzzles me. so please don't feel bad about me not really comprehending it. I am just mixed up about it. if everyone and everything i read would say the same thing then i wouldnt be so confused. I would know where to go from, I do listen to everyones advice on here and have followed some of the advice and it has been very very helpful. so please dont give up on me i will eventually catch on once i get it through this rock i call a head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Coaster Posted October 31, 2011 Members Share Posted October 31, 2011 for you at this point, NEVER let the clip light come on. maybe at some point in the future but for now kee it out of the red until you get a better grasp at things. we are trying to help. we are telling you the best way to do these things in the best way we can. have faith musicman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Musicman717 Posted October 31, 2011 Author Members Share Posted October 31, 2011 Here's another issue: the S-200 is basically a verb/delay unit, and a pretty good one at that. The thing it doesn't do well is compression. Basically the user interface is terrible for adjusting parameters ect with the compressor effect. Add to it that a verb/delay unit is what's called a "parallel effect" (connected to the aux sends and returns to a channel or other input unrelated to the source). The compressor function is a "serial" effect: the signal chain is exactly mic into XLR input of board, insert cable plugged into the insert of that channal (and only that 1 channel), signal is then routed back to that mixer channel and only that mixer channel via the insert cable.Question: are you plugging the mic directly into the S200 or into a channel on the board? What cables are being used?The best advice I can give is to buy a decent 2 channel compressor with 2 insert cables and leave the S200 for verb duty only. Read up on how a comp works and spend some time at home with a mic/comp/mixer/speaker and learn how a comp actually works. Every bit of compression used will reduce the gain-before-feedback ratio, meaning your wedges won't be able to be as loud because of the compressor. Its a bad thing. Compression needs to be very carefully applied or accidents will happen. I am plugging the mic directly into the board. I am useing some cheap cables that i have had for a long time. they are still good working cables. ok so let me see if i got this. i have to plug my mic into the mixer channel and then with a insert cable plug the compressor into the insert on that channel and the signal will go from the mic to the mixer into the compressor and then back to the mixer and go futher on down the chain , right? I agree with that advice , if i ever got one i would set down and mess with it and find out what everything does before i ever put it into my rack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Musicman717 Posted October 31, 2011 Author Members Share Posted October 31, 2011 for you at this point, NEVER let the clip light come on. maybe at some point in the future but for now kee it out of the red until you get a better grasp at things.we are trying to help. we are telling you the best way to do these things in the best way we can. have faith musicman thanks man, I think mainly it's just me at the moment. yall have great advice but when i read about the same thing at times then thats where i get confused at. you guys know more about this and have been there more than i do. LOL:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 31, 2011 Members Share Posted October 31, 2011 Ugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Musicman717 Posted October 31, 2011 Author Members Share Posted October 31, 2011 Ugh. what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 31, 2011 Members Share Posted October 31, 2011 You still are missing the entire point that most folks here are trying to make. You don't understand how a compressor works but assume this is what you need to fix your problem which isn't even a problem (probably). IMO, you need to understand the basics a whole lot better or you are going to thrash about without any improvements. Learn about gain structure FIRST, fix your problem that way, THEN once you have that mastered, see if you still need a compressor. There are many fairly large shows that I have no need for a compressor with. I don't see you at that point yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Musicman717 Posted October 31, 2011 Author Members Share Posted October 31, 2011 You still are missing the entire point that most folks here are trying to make. You don't understand how a compressor works but assume this is what you need to fix your problem which isn't even a problem (probably). IMO, you need to understand the basics a whole lot better or you are going to thrash about without any improvements.Learn about gain structure FIRST, fix your problem that way, THEN once you have that mastered, see if you still need a compressor. There are many fairly large shows that I have no need for a compressor with. I don't see you at that point yet. ok, you are right i dont know how one works. where could i get a video showing about gain structure that would be a good tutoral for me ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members srspud Posted October 31, 2011 Members Share Posted October 31, 2011 If this is the mixer you have then simply turn the very first white knob at the top fully counter clockwise. You will then probably not hear anything from the mic or see any signal. Slowly start turning it clockwise while talking into the mic until you hear a clean signal. Set the channel fader at "0" before starting this. If you have that knob past around 2 o'clock then you are probably going to have too hot of a signal and can clip or distort of feedback easily. That knob is the important one when considering gain structure as the guys previously mentioned. Stay away from a compressor until you've had someone teach you in person. That board can sound fine without one unless you are doing loud screaming erratic forceful vocals. In the meantime...work with the top white knob (input gain) and use the button (pfl level set) at the bottom of the output leds at the far right of the mixer to set the gains so they don't clip (into the red). This works in conjunction with the solo button on each channel. If you are unsure refer to the owners manual under Section 2: Control Elements and Connections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Consume Posted October 31, 2011 Members Share Posted October 31, 2011 ok, you are right i dont know how one works. where could i get a video showing about gain structure that would be a good tutoral for me ? Yamaha makes a book on PA Systems - I would suggest it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Musicman717 Posted October 31, 2011 Author Members Share Posted October 31, 2011 If this is the mixer you have then simply turn the very first white knob at the top fully counter clockwise. You will then probably not hear anything from the mic or see any signal. Slowly start turning it clockwise while talking into the mic until you hear a clean signal. Set the channel fader at "0" before starting this. If you have that knob past around 2 o'clock then you are probably going to have too hot of a signal and can clip or distort of feedback easily. That knob is the important one when considering gain structure as the guys previously mentioned. Stay away from a compressor until you've had someone teach you in person. That board can sound fine without one unless you are doing loud screaming erratic forceful vocals. In the meantime...work with the top white knob (input gain) and use the button (pfl level set) at the bottom of the output leds at the far right of the mixer to set the gains so they don't clip (into the red). This works in conjunction with the solo button on each channel. If you are unsure refer to the owners manual under Section 2: Control Elements and Connections. yes this is the exact board that i have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TimmyP Posted October 31, 2011 Members Share Posted October 31, 2011 I would guess that using a typical dynamic mic into that mixer, you'd want the gain control set at about 10:00 on a vocal channel. Where do you normally set it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted October 31, 2011 Members Share Posted October 31, 2011 I still say don't bother using an S-200 for the compressor function, it's totally not user friendly in anyway for that. Verb yes, comp no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Musicman717 Posted October 31, 2011 Author Members Share Posted October 31, 2011 I still say don't bother using an S-200 for the compressor function, it's totally not user friendly in anyway for that. Verb yes, comp no. ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Musicman717 Posted October 31, 2011 Author Members Share Posted October 31, 2011 I went on you tube and watched a video from expert village with someone named kip bradford and he showed about gain structureing and i seen some stuff i need to do. but i also have a couple of questions about the eq part. I always eq my vocal mics on my board flat, is there anyway that if i turned down the low end a little bit that that could help me? just curious. and can i do the gain structure with my amps on? the way he explained it in the video , kinda seemed like it was a either /or type thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Coaster Posted October 31, 2011 Members Share Posted October 31, 2011 it depends on what you mean by gain structure - if you are simply talking about PFL staging on your board then yes, have the amps on and listen to the signal while you PFL. gain structure really refers to the entire staging from input to the amplifiers, but we dont need to get this detailed yet; focus on getting good signal and sound from your console, and dont be afraid to run the faders up around zero. use your ears to eq. a little roll off on the low shelf is likely a good thing but dont cut too much. its all a compromise so find the sound you want to hear and tailor it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 31, 2011 Members Share Posted October 31, 2011 It hurts when I slam my hand in the door... every time I do this... what should I do about it? Stop slamming yor hand in the door!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Musicman717 Posted November 1, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 1, 2011 it depends on what you mean by gain structure - if you are simply talking about PFL staging on your board then yes, have the amps on and listen to the signal while you PFL.gain structure really refers to the entire staging from input to the amplifiers, but we dont need to get this detailed yet; focus on getting good signal and sound from your console, and dont be afraid to run the faders up around zero.use your ears to eq. a little roll off on the low shelf is likely a good thing but dont cut too much. its all a compromise so find the sound you want to hear and tailor it. yes , coaster , that is exactly the way i have been setting my levels , i am so proud that you said it like that. ok, now when i DO that , on the vocal mic and the kick mic they are the ones that goes into the red pretty much all the time. and i have to pretty much back them nearly all the way down, that's where i have said it was too hot of a signal. how do i fix this if there is a problem and what do i do to fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted November 1, 2011 Members Share Posted November 1, 2011 yes , coaster , that is exactly the way i have been setting my levels , i am so proud that you said it like that. ok, now when i DO that , on the vocal mic and the kick mic they are the ones that goes into the red pretty much all the time. and i have to pretty much back them nearly all the way down, that's where i have said it was too hot of a signal. how do i fix this if there is a problem and what do i do to fix it. How do you fix this??? Turn the input gain down and the fader up. You have a gain structure problem, not a compressor problem. A compresor will not fix this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NUSound Posted November 1, 2011 Members Share Posted November 1, 2011 How do you fix this??? Turn the input gain down and the fader up. You have a gain structure problem, not a compressor problem. A compresor will not fix this. Lemme guess... when you turn the input gain down... it's not loud enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heath_eld Posted November 1, 2011 Members Share Posted November 1, 2011 OK. For the sake of making sure i was speaking in facts, i took out my Behringer SX3242FX - identical to yours except it has more channels. I plugged in a beta 58 vocal microphone with a standard XLR mic cable, and adjusted the input trim to about 7 oclock (as low as it would go). At this level, i screamed into the mic, and was unable to get the channel into the yellow - let alone the red. I can imagine that someone with a louder scream might get the yellow but i find it very hard to believe that a vocallist is running this into the red just singing. When i adjusted it to about 10 o clock, by screaming, i was able to get the channel into the red. I'm not sure how yours can be running into the red all the time on normal vocals. While there may be an issue with your mics being far hotter than the beta 58 (relatively unlikely i would assume) i dont understand how this issue can be causing such an issue. You are using XLR to XLR cables, i assume? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Musicman717 Posted November 1, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 1, 2011 How do you fix this??? Turn the input gain down and the fader up. You have a gain structure problem, not a compressor problem. A compresor will not fix this. ok, aged , i looked at it with that board last night and i believe you are right, I am going to work on this at the gig sunday. thanks man for your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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