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Competition


Outkaster

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Here in NYS people think that a lot of bands/musicians are supposed to place nice in the sandbox and the truth of the matter is people don’t…There is always competition. People can act like there is no competition but there is always an undercurrent of it. I know as musicians we are not supposed to work together. I don't see much of it and people are in silos. I gig in three good size cities and it’s the same in all three places because venues get less and less. Luckily I know my landscape and try not to burn bridges as it also requires you to be ahead of the curve. Managing yourself/band is a chess game as most of you know and you have to know how to move. Currently I have a band on my tail, playing the same kind of music as we do. They steal the ideas for the songs we do, the arrangements and try to call the same clubs to get gigs. The owners of these venues have even contacted me to ask questions about them. They post passive-aggressive things on Facebook, book gigs the same nights as we are playing to try to steal our crowd and post videos of themselves playing the same music we do. I do my best not to feed into it and it usually backfires on them. If you can establish good relationships with musicians and sub jobs it’s always a good thing. Do any of you experience certain competitiveness from people/bands.

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I guess, how much of that is real malicious action and how much of that is your perception? For example, drawing on my experience from my last band, we played pop/rock/top 40. Male lead and Female lead. So "playing the same kind of music as we do" describes almost all of the bands currently on the circuit around here. Unless you are playing Emo Pirate Metal, aren't there a lot of bands playing the same kind of music?

 

"They steal the ideas for the songs we do" Most bands' set lists here overlap. The last band I saw played almost our entire set list. I'm going to audition for a band next week and they sent me their set list - with a couple of exceptions, it's almost all songs my last band played, but I'm not going to say they copied us.

 

"Try to call the same clubs to get gigs" Don't all bands do that? We are all trying to get into fewer and fewer places. Why wouldn't they be calling all the good places?

 

"Book the same nights we do" The fact that you are playing Venue X on a particular night probably means they have a better shot at getting in at Venue Y that same night. Doesn't necessarily mean they are trying to steal your crowd. Plus, it's hard enough to book around band members' schedules. Imagine trying to do that AND book to match another band's and other venues' schedules? That's really hard to do.

 

"Videos of themselves playing the same music we do" See above. Everyone has a video of themselves playing "The Middle". There are standards people post and they overlap.

 

I don't know your band or the kind of music you play or whether you have something really unique and different that you are putting out there, but I would challenge you to take a step back and ask yourself if this is really malicious competition, or just a band occupying the same market as you, doing the same kind of thing as you trying hard to get themselves out there - in which case all this overlap you are noticing would just be a natural result of two bands trying to get themselves out there.

 

Now, if you have a specific style that's different, and your arrangements are really unique, and they are grabbing all that, then sure maybe it's not just coincidence. But if you are a classic rock band, or a 90's Alt Rock band or an 80s band or a pop/rock/top 40 band, there are going to be other bands out there in that genre doing the same thing you do.

 

I agree with your attitude and approach to it. Don't feed into it. Don't engage. Focus on being the best you can be. And establish good relationships with other musicians in the circuit. All very good ideas.

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Such is the nature of the modern live music scene. Once upon a time, when I was in my 20s, I could be in a full time 6 night a week band and stay home and play, do a house gig, or travel on the road. It was a distinct world apart from the weekend hobbyist who played Friday an Saturday Night at the small bars or taverns. Everyone full time booked through agents, so there wasn't much competition. The agent determined if your set list was a bookable commodity or not. Everyone in both worlds got along well, and in fact there was a lot of people coming and going from full time to part time.

 

Fast forward to today, where the full time gig is dead, and the pros had no choice but to retreat into the realm of the hobbyist. In my experience, this is what set up the notion of competition that has never changed. Hobbyists resented the pros coming in and taking their gigs, and a bidding wr ensued: Band A said "well, we'll lower our price by 50 or a hundred dollar a weekend." Band b said "we'll lower our price and do the advertising." Band A responded by saying "we'll lower the price, do your advertising, and bring 25 people." Band B said "well do all the advertising, bring the crowd and we'll play for the door vs a small guarantee." Band A said "we'll do all that but waive the guarantee and take whatever we get from the door." Band B said "we'll play for the fun of it- we all have day jobs so we don't need the money.Just give us free beer and a burger." And down it goes.

 

Now, the competition is no longer between hobbyists and pros. That horse died a long time ago. But the notion of competition itself is still alive and well, band fighting over the few remaining crumbs on the table. Guys with bands around here never share information about who to contact, who pays what, and so on.

 

It isn't that way at all in the solo scene. I just played a singer/ songwriter's round last night with 5 guys on a big outdoor stage and hundreds of people showed up. One of my fellow musicians got me that gig last year and they asked me back this year. This year, I got a young 18 year old kid invited to it he knocked everyone out, as i knew he would. Hopefully it will be his start into the music business here. We solo guys all look out for each other, tell each other about new venues tell venue owners about one another. Keeping a fresh and vibrant scene helps everyone. Few things will kill a scene faster than the musicians hoarding their information and trying to protect their little fiefdoms.

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I guess, how much of that is real malicious action and how much of that is your perception? For example, drawing on my experience from my last band, we played pop/rock/top 40. Male lead and Female lead. So "playing the same kind of music as we do" describes almost all of the bands currently on the circuit around here. Unless you are playing Emo Pirate Metal, aren't there a lot of bands playing the same kind of music?

 

"They steal the ideas for the songs we do" Most bands' set lists here overlap. The last band I saw played almost our entire set list. I'm going to audition for a band next week and they sent me their set list - with a couple of exceptions, it's almost all songs my last band played, but I'm not going to say they copied us.

 

"Try to call the same clubs to get gigs" Don't all bands do that? We are all trying to get into fewer and fewer places. Why wouldn't they be calling all the good places?

 

"Book the same nights we do" The fact that you are playing Venue X on a particular night probably means they have a better shot at getting in at Venue Y that same night. Doesn't necessarily mean they are trying to steal your crowd. Plus, it's hard enough to book around band members' schedules. Imagine trying to do that AND book to match another band's and other venues' schedules? That's really hard to do.

 

"Videos of themselves playing the same music we do" See above. Everyone has a video of themselves playing "The Middle". There are standards people post and they overlap.

 

I don't know your band or the kind of music you play or whether you have something really unique and different that you are putting out there, but I would challenge you to take a step back and ask yourself if this is really malicious competition, or just a band occupying the same market as you, doing the same kind of thing as you trying hard to get themselves out there - in which case all this overlap you are noticing would just be a natural result of two bands trying to get themselves out there.

 

Now, if you have a specific style that's different, and your arrangements are really unique, and they are grabbing all that, then sure maybe it's not just coincidence. But if you are a classic rock band, or a 90's Alt Rock band or an 80s band or a pop/rock/top 40 band, there are going to be other bands out there in that genre doing the same thing you do.

 

I agree with your attitude and approach to it. Don't feed into it. Don't engage. Focus on being the best you can be. And establish good relationships with other musicians in the circuit. All very good ideas.

 

I knew one of you might say that. Trust me I used to play with a few of the other band’s members and when I ventured on my own they have tried to take credit for my success. It was almost like because I didn’t include them in the project they are mad about it and it’s not “OK” for me to have a group. The reason I did it is although I like them as people I can’t play music with them. I needed to venture out on my own and so far so good, I am not afraid to work hard. They flat out told me one time I didn’t have a strong drummer, I would never do that to another band even if I thought it to be true. This is cultural music and very specific. I am not making any of this up, even the fan base contacts me about things. One of the guy’s wife is behind some of this. For them to bad mouth our group to a club owner is kind of uncool just to get a gig. We have merchandise that sells well, CDs, a good following, a good web presence and they don’t so I think that is part of it. Anything is available if you want to work for it but they don’t. I would love to work with them but they can't be cool and think they are somehow entitled to be the only Reggae band on the block. Sorry it more than a coincidence.

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So these are guys you know and used to play with? Yeah, that's different than what I thought you were saying. I'm sure that happens a lot in that context because we musicians are notoriously immature and overly emotional. I've had a little bit of that, but not in a destructive way. A couple bands ago, our lead singer retired, as a result, the band wound down, all on friendly terms. We are all still friends and occasionally collaborate with and support one another. Yet, I started one band, and the drummer started another, and there was some degree of competition in that we both were trying to ride the goodwill of the defunct band to preserve relationships with the clubs where we played. And then there was the friendly competition around which band was better, which band had a bigger following, which band got more gigs, better gigs, etc.

 

None of it turned malicious like what you are describing, though. And in terms of who won? Well, my band wound down and his is still going, so I guess maybe he did. But I played the better clubs while I was still going, and he played and is still playing the dive bars, so maybe I won? Doesn't really matter. At least we stayed friendly and it never turned ugly. And we both were successful in what mattered to each of us and had fun doing it, so ultimately, we both won.

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Trust me these guys will stop at nothing and are even trying to get our old bass player to come back from Jamaica. It really is amazing. The music thing to me is a chess game. I say that because you are dealing with people and that requires you to be ahead a couple moves. Some people do it better than other and I tried/try not to make mistakes I saw from other musical projects I was involved with. I always said that, I remember seeing road signs in other bands I would tell myself “I won’t do this” or “I would never do that”. At any rate it’s just sad I have to kind of walk around on eggshells all the time in certain environments.

 

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