Members Stratomaster15 Posted November 19, 2011 Members Share Posted November 19, 2011 Hi everyone, it's that time in our band's career: it's time to get a good PA for us to use since we can no longer borrow! Right now we've got a Behringer USB 10-mic input board into a Peavey M-2600 (260 watt stereo power amp) into two Phonic 10" speakers. We're a 5 piece so we're pretty loud and we can hardly hear the singer at practice. When we can, the sound is bad too no matter how we EQ it. We need a new PA or something to use for gigs that's loud enough for some vocals and keys to be heard and we want to keep it at $1,000 max. What should we do? New power amp, new speakers, new board? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rezrover Posted November 19, 2011 Members Share Posted November 19, 2011 New budget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stratomaster15 Posted November 19, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 19, 2011 I wish we had one! Problem is is that we're young (16), have no jobs, and unfortunately the singer calls all the shots and he's limited the budget to $1,000... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted November 19, 2011 Members Share Posted November 19, 2011 How about an XR1212 and a pair of used Yam Clubs or similar? Maybe the stuff you have could be used for a little bit of monitor? BTW, that much power should be more than enough just for practice. Maybe you need to situate yourselves and the speakers better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dcastar Posted November 19, 2011 Members Share Posted November 19, 2011 Triple your budget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stratomaster15 Posted November 19, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 19, 2011 How about an XR1212 and a pair of used Yam Clubs or similar? Maybe the stuff you have could be used for a little bit of monitor? BTW, that much power should be more than enough just for practice. Maybe you need to situate yourselves and the speakers better? I was thinking what we have now would be good for monitors since the power amp isn't that big and the speakers are wedges already. I'll look for some of the Yamaha Club speakers but if I can't find any what would be good alternatives? Should we get passive speakers instead of active and get a power amp? And we run the power amp in mono because I think channel B doesn't work on the power amp so it's really only 130 watts... Maybe I'm just crazy? I dunno. Thanks though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members basschaplain Posted November 19, 2011 Members Share Posted November 19, 2011 Do you already have all the cables, stands, and mics you need? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stratomaster15 Posted November 19, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 19, 2011 Do you already have all the cables, stands, and mics you need? Hardly... We have enough XLRs and four vocal mics but they're cheap mics that come with things (Phonic/Samson mics w/ on/off switch) and enough mic stands that work decently but we're borrowing speaker stands from the school and we have to return them eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted November 19, 2011 Members Share Posted November 19, 2011 With your budget you don't have a lot of options but all is not lost. Accepting what you can get for $1000 is the first thing. That being said, if I were in your shoes, this is what I might do: Use the Behringer mixer, check out GC's "used" gear section and look for some Yamaha clubs as suggested. Also check out their used amps and see if you can find a QSC gx5 for mains (there's a lot of them out there cheap) Invest in better vocal mics, SM58's or e835's can be found around $60.00 (used). Then TURN DOWN YOUR AMPS!!!!!One of the hardest things young bands have with sound is knowing when enough is enough. I don't know if that mixer has auxes but if so, you could then add a GX3 for monitors.Try to buy the best equipment your budget allows. Don't buy a bunch of Nady monitors because they're cheap. The quality really does matter. I just checked their site and found: Gx5--$250GX3--$200 (future)Yamaha's--$300-400/PR.mics x 4--$250speaker stands--$50 There's $1000. As you can see, it doesn't go far but at your level, it should get you where you want to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stratomaster15 Posted November 20, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 20, 2011 Thanks Tom! I sent our singer a text about the speakers and the GX5. If he warms up to that I'll send him a text about the mics and stands, we can probably get away with borrowing a few cables from the school until we get more money to get more. And about the turning down thing... These guys pop in their earplugs and crank it up and drum really loud so I have a hard time with that : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bobby1Note Posted November 20, 2011 Members Share Posted November 20, 2011 Thanks Tom! I sent our singer a text about the speakers and the GX5. If he warms up to that I'll send him a text about the mics and stands, we can probably get away with borrowing a few cables from the school until we get more money to get more. And about the turning down thing... These guys pop in their earplugs and crank it up and drum really loud so I have a hard time with that : That's what will kill your band, before you even get started,,, no matter what gear you buy. It's one thing to play loud at a band-practice,,,,, but when you're faced with an audience,,,, and you're in a venue where your stage combo-amps sound like {censored} to everyone in the room, except to the guy who's playing through it, then ir's time to grow up and get a PA. The trick there though, is to learn how to sound good, through a PA. (not compete against the PA) You guys need to take it right back to square one I'm afraid. You really do need to get some solid information about sound-reinforcement, so you can truly understand what choices to make, and why you should make those choices. At the moment, you guys will not not survive, if it's every man for himself on-stage. Not only do you have to learn to "think" like a band,,, but you also need to "think" like a PERFORMING band. That requires "balance", and that only comes with experience. Don't get me wrong; I'm hoping you get there. I just hope you guys can start off on the right foot. Here are some basic and more advanced PA guides to get you started. Yamaha also offers a great guide, and you'll find guides at Shure.com Start treading, and good luck; you'll need it. http://www.yorkville.com/default.asp?p1=6&p2=0&p_id=70 http://www.yorkville.com/default.asp?p1=6&p2=0&p_id=17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted November 20, 2011 Members Share Posted November 20, 2011 Thanks Tom! I sent our singer a text about the speakers and the GX5. If he warms up to that I'll send him a text about the mics and stands, we can probably get away with borrowing a few cables from the school until we get more money to get more. And about the turning down thing... These guys pop in their earplugs and crank it up and drum really loud so I have a hard time with that : You know, I'm getting a good laugh on this!!! I was you about 35 years ago. Got to say they were some good times too. However, as a band we sucked. We were just too young to know it :lol: Your performance does not get better by shear volume, it will in fact be worse. You guys will get there and have fun along the way. But I cannot stress enough-----------stage discipline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stratomaster15 Posted November 20, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 20, 2011 Speaking off the record here... It's not that easy... I do take sound stuff seriously though but nothing I say really rubs off... I just hope that with the gear things will sink in and at least I'll be able to benefit from working with the gear. I will read the articles you posted though, I actually want to become an audio engineer (it will be a miracle if I get there from the noob I am!) so I'll appreciate it. Thanks Edit: Tom we'll see! The times are... Up and down and the band's filled with drama but it all comes down to making music and having fun. I'll try and work on some stage discipline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted November 20, 2011 Members Share Posted November 20, 2011 Speaking off the record here... It's not that easy... I do take sound stuff seriously though but nothing I say really rubs off... I just hope that with the gear things will sink in and at least I'll be able to benefit from working with the gear. I will read the articles you posted though, I actually want to become an audio engineer (it will be a miracle if I get there from the noob I am!) so I'll appreciate it. Thanks Edit: Tom we'll see! The times are... Up and down and the band's filled with drama but it all comes down to making music and having fun. I'll try and work on some stage discipline This can be a very expensive endeavor if done wrecklessly. Your $1000.00 rig could be toast in seconds if abused. I know that much $$$$ is a lot for someone your age so think about what you're doing. Your bandmates MUST understand and cooperate with the care of the PA or don't even waste your money. Images of the "big boys" rocking out in concert leaves a powerful picture to duplicate. You have no idea of the expertise that goes behind that. Youth and caution are not usually coexistent-----------do your upmost to learn about sound sytems BEFORE you try to hold a backyard Woodstock. It will be a lot cheaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stratomaster15 Posted November 20, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 20, 2011 My bandmates don't really abuse things (thank god) but they do neglect a lot. I'm always the last one down there flipping switches on amps, keyboards, and our PA because nobody ever does it. One time we borrowed the school's PA and it got the same treatment. Anyways, it's not the band's money he's using (that's already all gone) it's his own so if he buys the system and breaks it it's his problem not really mine. I'm willing to teach the guys how to do it properly but nobody wants to listen to me so they'll have their PA like they want but it's up to them to work it how they want. OT: anyone have experience dealing with a stubborn band that just wants you to shut up and play? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sharnrock Posted November 20, 2011 Members Share Posted November 20, 2011 OT: anyone have experience dealing with a stubborn band that just wants you to shut up and play? Only about 8 years. The key to having a good mix has more to do with EQ than volume sometimes. It's hard to convince people of this when everyone is inexperienced. They all think they know best. When the guitar is all by itself people like to pump the low end to give it a good full sound. Of course this throws a blanket over the while mix. Then the other guitar player has to turn up, then the bass player turns up, then you have to try to get vocals loud enough to be intelligible over top of that mess. Thats the problem I see with most bands. Try to get the strings to shine on the guitars then use the bass to fill the low end. Point the amps so they are aimed at the people that need to hear them. If its a combo amp, lean it back. They even make stands to make this easy. Half stacks don't really lean back. With lower volumes you can hear the drums and buy cheaper gear. Good sound is just as important as good songs. Take some time next practice; get your sound right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bobby1Note Posted November 20, 2011 Members Share Posted November 20, 2011 My bandmates don't really abuse things (thank god) but they do neglect a lot. I'm always the last one down there flipping switches on amps, keyboards, and our PA because nobody ever does it. One time we borrowed the school's PA and it got the same treatment. Anyways, it's not the band's money he's using (that's already all gone) it's his own so if he buys the system and breaks it it's his problem not really mine. I'm willing to teach the guys how to do it properly but nobody wants to listen to me so they'll have their PA like they want but it's up to them to work it how they want. OT: anyone have experience dealing with a stubborn band that just wants you to shut up and play? Stratomaster15, I've been playing for 49 years, and most of my buddies have been playing for 40 years or more, and that STILL can be an issue. Mind you, the guys are getting better at it, but you have to take the bull by the horns, and just make "great sound" happen. Until that happens, you'll have little or no credibility, and they simply won't listen. Egos will get in the way. It would be great if you guys had a mentor, or someone you trust, respect, and admire, providing a lil' knowledge and experience. Once the guys learn that what they're hearing "on-stage", is not necessarily what the audience is hearing,,,, they'll begin to understand. They have to "please" the audience first and foremost, or they're dead in the water. Without an audience, they'll have to put their trust in a "soundman",,, who represents the 'audience". When there's no stage discipline, all kinds of ugly things start to happen. Stage-amps will "bleed" into the vocal mics, and you'll lose all ability to clean up the sound. You'll get a tangled mushy mess. Oh, it'll be loud alright, but it will sound like LOUD crap. Take a band like Metallica for example. Sure, they can be "loud", but it's much more about "balance" than volume. Vocals are crystal-clear,,, all the instrument parts are clear and well-defined. No musician "buries" the other. They're not competing against each other,,,, they're playing as a unit. When they're playing in front of a 1/2 million people,,, believe me,,, their "sound" is NOT coming from stage-amps. It's the soundman who is in charge of that "sound". Playing with "power", has nothing to do with "volume". Consider this; try listening to a Metallica CD over a good system. Now, turn the volume down a little. What do you hear? The band still sounds exactly the same,,,, it's simply not as loud. The "power of the performance" is still there,,,, but it's simply not as loud. The trick to a good "sound", whether it's from the stage-amps or a PA, is to have definition and clarity, without the distortion and artifacts that will create listener-fatigue. This is where "bringing enough rig for the gig" comes in. Turning up a rig, beyond it's capacity or ability to perform without distortion, is a recipe for listener fatigue,,, and sure as hell, your audience will walk. Once your band is identified with "crappy sound",,, that'll be a very hard image to shake. If the band is content to "play in the basement " and impress "themselves only", then cool, crank it to 11. If they want to impress their audience however, then they have to grow up from a basement-band, to a "performing band". Once they realize that the audience is #1, they're well on their way to a successful show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted November 20, 2011 Members Share Posted November 20, 2011 Here are my thoughts ... As others have eluded, TURN EVERYTHING ELSE DOWN! This includes the drummer. Try practicing with no PA until you can play low enough for everyone to hear the singer ambiently. This isn't a real life situation; however, if you can do this, then you have SOME idea of where you need to be to sound decent live and to play TOGETHER as a band. Get rid of the ear plugs. This is just exasperating the problem. Now, I would go buy a pair of LiveX EV112's. These are a GOOD pair of powered speakers which should easily serve your band and get the vocals cleanly through the mix. You can sell your amp and current speakers and pocket the money for some better gear later..... but keep in mind, you aren't going to get much. Good luck! ....... and TURN DOWN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted November 20, 2011 Members Share Posted November 20, 2011 So you really have 2 issues. You're current setup, which is being used for monitoring, isn't loud enough, AND you have no FOH. With your budget you need to make your monitor system work "as is" so you the answer is to turn down. There's no other way around it. As you transition from practice to gigging, as hard as it is, you have to get your bandmates to understand that "playing out" is all about THE AUDIENCE. In ALL CASES what's best for the people coming to see you SHOULD win out. This will probably be a constant battle you're entire life, BTW So back to your question. If you want something that is better than what 75% of weekend warriors are schlepping into venues, get a pair of RCF 312A or 315A powered speakers. Yes, it pretty much eats up your entire budget, but you have a pair of quality speakers that will make excellent FOH now and very good monitors for practice and gigging down the road if you ever move up the food chain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bobby1Note Posted November 20, 2011 Members Share Posted November 20, 2011 That's an excellent suggestion that Abzurd just gave you. Those particular models can be had for under $400. ea (new) if you shop around. My only concern with that recommendation is, I think I'd rather see you guys start out with one RCF 312a, and a quality active (powered) sub. I wouldn't wait too long however, for the second 312a. That model is discontinued I believe, and they're being scooped up by guys who recognize a great deal when they see one. Why a sub? Simple. Most people over-crank their tops, because they don't have the bottom-end that they're looking for. They crank 'em, thinking that this will bring out the low frequencies, but it's all in vain. The speakers distort, and sound like hell, until they eventually fail. ($$$$$) With a good tight-sounding sub, you'll find that you have very little need for cranking the snot out of those tops. Your only trade-off with a single top, is you'll have less dispersion, and about 3dB less volume. That's barely noticeable, and most folks would never notice the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted November 20, 2011 Members Share Posted November 20, 2011 The RCF 310A, 312A, and 315A are all current production and RCF has no plans to discontinue any time soon. This was the word straight from the head of national sales for RCF USA. My guess is they've sold more of the 300 series in the last 12 months than the did the previous 3-4 yrs combined. As for a sub, while it would be a great add, that would be the next move when money allows. A pair of quality mains will get you out gigging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted November 21, 2011 Members Share Posted November 21, 2011 I wouldn't dispute Abzurd's choice in speaker. The RCF's are reputed to be quite good. The bottom line is the same..... get a pair of powered 12" tops with your money and sell off your amp and existing top speakers for whatever you can manage to get for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stratomaster15 Posted November 22, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 22, 2011 I don't doubt the recommendation on those powered speakers, they look great! I tried talking to our singer about them and well... No interest was really shown. Maybe I have bigger problems than gear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted November 22, 2011 Members Share Posted November 22, 2011 I don't doubt the recommendation on those powered speakers, they look great! I tried talking to our singer about them and well... No interest was really shown. Maybe I have bigger problems than gear? Most probably you do but that's Rock & Roll. Welcome to the pit of despair known as the Music Biz. FYI and the singer's, back when Mackie was a reputable company they used RCF "raw" speakers for their now ubiquitous Mackie SRM 450 speaker cabs. And other companies have used RCF products over the years (including Yorkville Sound from Canada). They are a solid company that make very good sounding products, and the speakers suggested appear to be a great deal. Two good powered speakers is the way you want to start, and then add a sub as money permits. Above all though, I would start with the mic. If your singer isn't using an SM58 or better ( a real one not a used counterfeit 58) then you'll need to get one or something similar like an Sennheiser e835. And although Phonic isn't a great brand.... make sure it's not just the PA and not also a combination of the singer or the band. Can the singer project? Can the band turn down? OT - I bought my first PA at sixteen; a very long time ago! Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted November 22, 2011 Members Share Posted November 22, 2011 I don't doubt the recommendation on those powered speakers, they look great! I tried talking to our singer about them and well... No interest was really shown. Maybe I have bigger problems than gear? Take your singer to GC and plug him/her into the soundboard through a pair of better powered speakers (JBL PRX, Yamaha DSR, QSC K12, KW122) and see how differently things sound Is it your money, the singers money, or the bands money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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