Members WynnD Posted December 19, 2015 Author Members Share Posted December 19, 2015 There has been some serious good suggestions. I haven't used my IEMs for stage. I do have enough mixer (6 aux outs beyond effects.) I still don't know if the bands will be using my mixer or someone else's. Their mixers don't have 1/4 the capabilities and IEMs can't be customized on their mixers. (think none of them has more than 2 aux and 1 might be for internal effects.) On the other hand, I'm not against using a mixer and system they know well. Using IEMs and Leslies will require an organ line for the IEM. (I can take that out directly without running the output to the FOH. Or just run a mic to them. I actually own enough mics to do that.) The whole thing starts to get convoluted after a while. (simplify simplify simplify.) To some degree, the brain will adjust to your hearing loss. Unfortunately that doesn't help you understand speech at conversational levels in noisy environments. I don't want to subject my hearing to 140 db by adding to that volume while rehearsing or gigging. So I just shut the hearing aids off. (iphone control app.) And I'm not blaming loud music or motorcycling for my hearing loss. I'm just about on target following my Mother's hearing loss and she was never exposed to loud noise levels. (And I ride the most socially acceptable motorcycle ever built. a Honda Pacific Coast. Sort of a two wheeled Accord.) If you don't wear hearing aids, you are only guessing how they help and won't be aware of how they don't. I know they are making improvements all the time, but nothing is better than the hearing you had at 20. Protect your hearing if you can. My hereditary hearing loss can't be stopped by normal means. (Sort of the hearing version of macular degeneration.) So I don't know how much longer I can do sound jobs. (I do some live music engineering, but mostly general PA and theater.) Should be able to gig longer than that. Not ready for music to not be part of my world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 19, 2015 Members Share Posted December 19, 2015 Sorry to hear about your hearing loss. Much of it can be hereditary, and I don't know to what degree trying to protect it after a certain age or point of deterioration helps. But a big part of the reason for me to switch the band to IEMs was to limit further exposure to loud noises. I had a problem with my left ear prior to switching IEMs where listening to conversation was muffled. Even something like listening to talk radio through earphones, I could only understand what was being said clearly in the right ear. Not sure what was causing that and if it's just coincidence or not, but that has pretty much disappeared since the switch to IEMs. My ears are back to being pretty much equal again. It's also nice to not come home with ringing ears after a show. Even at moderate volumes, my ears would start to ring after a couple of hours of being on stage. And, as I have learned from audiologists, which frequencies you are exposed makes little difference in contributing to hearing loss. The ones that don't sound piercing are just as harmful. They are a big help. Takes a bit of time to get adjusted to the new aural environment at a gig, and there is a bit of trouble and expense in first setting up a system for an entire band, but it's worth it to protect one's hearing for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted December 20, 2015 Author Members Share Posted December 20, 2015 Good to hear your hearing recovering. Without my hearing aids, things do sound a bit muffled. Had rehearsal today and talked with the band leader about IEMs and monitors. Am I right that only wireless IEMs are pricey? (Mine were about $400.) Pretty sure I could get more into them if wired ones could be had for $100. We've got lots of monitors. Ever come back from a break and forget to turn the mains on? I have and apparently the monitors were as loud in the audience as the mains. Whenever I'm playing with a Pro running their board, I usually ask for a much lower volume on the monitor for myself. (Especially outdoors.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted December 20, 2015 Members Share Posted December 20, 2015 You practice with monitors and mains? we just use a small fender passport PA and I use a teeny 10W marshall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 20, 2015 Members Share Posted December 20, 2015 Our rehearsals are super quiet. Drummer plays on a small e-kit and if it's just a musical rehearsal without the singers we use no PA all we can hear the guide vocals with no PA. If the singers are there, I run all the vocals through a small system, but it's not all that much louder than singing without it. Loud volume doesn't help rehearsal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted December 20, 2015 Author Members Share Posted December 20, 2015 That makes me smile. Don't use monitors at rehearsal, but have a couple of EV SX100s aimed into the group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Drummer44 Posted December 20, 2015 Members Share Posted December 20, 2015 It's also nice to not come home with ringing ears after a show. Even at moderate volumes, my ears would start to ring after a couple of hours of being on stage. Our rehearsals are super quiet. Drummer plays on a small e-kit and if it's just a musical rehearsal without the singers we use no PA all we can hear the guide vocals with no PA. If the singers are there, I run all the vocals through a small system, but it's not all that much louder than singing without it. Loud volume doesn't help rehearsal. And then there's that tinnitus thing; I've got some degree of ringing going on all the time. <sigh>... Our sessions are balanced for our room. I usually use Cool Rods or similar on the kit (acoustic), and I can play most stuff quietly anyway. Instruments and vocals through the PA, relatively easy to control. Saw a review of Aquarian Super Pads recently, meant to use as practice pad and/or mute... so I have one on order to try. Thinking also about Zildjian's relatively new L80 reduced volume cymbals, but haven't found anyplace local that actually has any in stock to audition yet. We'll see how that goes, but I look at those ideas (if they work) as merely mechanic augmentation to my own ability to play as quietly as a venue requires. -D44 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 21, 2015 Members Share Posted December 21, 2015 And then there's that tinnitus thing; I've got some degree of ringing going on all the time. <sigh>... Our sessions are balanced for our room. I usually use Cool Rods or similar on the kit (acoustic), and I can play most stuff quietly anyway. Instruments and vocals through the PA, relatively easy to control. Saw a review of Aquarian Super Pads recently, meant to use as practice pad and/or mute... so I have one on order to try. Thinking also about Zildjian's relatively new L80 reduced volume cymbals, but haven't found anyplace local that actually has any in stock to audition yet. We'll see how that goes, but I look at those ideas (if they work) as merely mechanic augmentation to my own ability to play as quietly as a venue requires. -D44 Ah yes...lovely tinnitus! I've been dealing with that to one degree or another for the better part of 30 years now. Used to be just a slight "sounds like a bug near my ear" sound that I'd only hear while lying in bed. Now it's a louder buzz I can hear whenever it's really quiet or I concentrate on it. I'm able to block it out most of the time though. Not really as bad as it could be, I guess. And I don't know to what degree it affects the ability to hear well or clearly? I don't really think it does much. It's just "there". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted December 23, 2015 Members Share Posted December 23, 2015 I, too, love the sound of a real Leslie, but I need to be pragmatic, as I have a fair bit of hearing loss and struggle a fair bit at ridiculous stage volumes. There is simply no way to play an organ and have it fill a 10,000 square-foot venue, city park, etc that doesn't involve blood coming out of my ears. I mike the Leslie with 2 or 3 mics, and play it loud enough that the folks on the dance floor and the first few rows of seats get a good wash from the stage, in addition to the FOH. Those are the folks who care most about the sound anyhow. Up top I am using MD-421-IIs and on the bottom I am using an RE-20 these days. The band is set up pretty traditionally, with guitar cabs creating stage wash also. We play for a good stage mix and the FOH mix mostly takes care of itself. I play with either a 147 or a 760 right now. I have used the 760 for small outdoor gigs without reinforcement. I put it further from myself than usual so that I can play it a bit louder. I'm probably going to use a 145 for my next gig, I need the van space. I prefer the taller cabs because the horn wash will go further. You only need a bit of direct Leslie to mix with PA Leslie to create that glorious sound. A friend of mine who plays A-lister rooms on a regular basis has a nice system. He uses a 147 as his stage monitor, and points a 57 at the upper horn. The 57 is mixed with Neo Ventilator for the PA. It creates a really nice-sounding two-Leslie effect. Wes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted December 23, 2015 Members Share Posted December 23, 2015 One of my BL's just got new hearing aids that have a "band" setting so that he doesn't have to shut them off - and they add quite a bit to his being able to hear the band and audience. I'd recommend having a chat with your audiologist as they won't know you play in a band and need this unless you tell them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted December 24, 2015 Author Members Share Posted December 24, 2015 I have a music mode, but it's just about the same as my restaurant mode. (Or if it's different, I can't tell.) At rehearsal last night, we had our first session with a new drummer. Average loud sound was 100 dbc and the room is small and the drums were an acoustic set. I couldn't be happier. And being able to hear the vocals was a serious plus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted December 24, 2015 Members Share Posted December 24, 2015 Nice. How loud is 100dbc. Comfortable? Hopefully he works out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted December 24, 2015 Author Members Share Posted December 24, 2015 Every 10 db increase is a perceived doubling of volume. (That takes 10 times the power to get there.) Jet engine is 120 dbc. Rock Concerts can be that loud. Blood Sweat and Tears is about 95 db in the audience. Great listening volume. (Very danceable too.) Radio Shack used to sell a DB meter. I have one of those but I also have an acoustic app on my iphone that includes a db meter that's good up to about 115 db where the mic's own limit comes into play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted December 24, 2015 Author Members Share Posted December 24, 2015 There's a club out here that used to start at 110 db in the audience. (The entire audience) and got louder all evening. I had even registered 124 dbc on the subwoofers on the dance floor. You had to shout your orders and the wait staff had a high probability of getting the order wrong. On new band nights, the friends would come in to see their friends play and immediately bail when they were done. Same place with some restraint now is limited to 100 dbc. You no longer have to shout your drink orders, people hang around to see the next act and probably order a second drink. Way more profitable, way more enjoyable for me and apparently everyone else. Too loud is a real issue. And my two Leslies would be more than enough at 100 dbc. They would be marginal at 110 in the audience and vanish without a mic at anything higher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 24, 2015 Members Share Posted December 24, 2015 I have a music mode, but it's just about the same as my restaurant mode. (Or if it's different, I can't tell.) At rehearsal last night, we had our first session with a new drummer. Average loud sound was 100 dbc and the room is small and the drums were an acoustic set. I couldn't be happier. And being able to hear the vocals was a serious plus. You actually spend/waste time at rehearsal measuring db levels??? Can I ask for what purpose? I've never needed a db meter to tell me if I thought something was too loud or not. Pretty sure that's what my ears and my brain are for. What happens if I think something sounds fine but the db meter tells me it's too loud? Do I go get my hearing checked? Go buy a new meter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted December 24, 2015 Author Members Share Posted December 24, 2015 If you don't measure, and it only takes a few seconds to turn the app on, you don't really know how loud things are. If you've spent the day in a noisy environment, things won't sound as loud as if you've been in a very quiet environment all day. Measuring is the only sure way of telling. Try it. It doesn't take very long and you quickly learn what your comfort level actually lies at. It might be the same level I enjoy. It also might be so far above my maximum willing to work with you level, that you will know that we will never work together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 24, 2015 Members Share Posted December 24, 2015 If you don't measure, and it only takes a few seconds to turn the app on, you don't really know how loud things are. I know how loud things are by listening. They are either too loud or they are not. So if your ears are bleeding or the wife is yelling at you to turn it down---"but honey, the meter says it's only at 100 dbc!!!" you don't turn down? Sorry, but that's just about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. If you've spent the day in a noisy environment, things won't sound as loud as if you've been in a very quiet environment all day. Measuring is the only sure way of telling. Try it. It doesn't take very long and you quickly learn what your comfort level actually lies at. I know where my comfort level is at without having to be concerned with what number is associated with it. Why does the number on a meter matter? Who cares? It's either too loud or it isn't. End of story. I can turn up a volume knob and find my comfort level without fail. I have no idea if that number is 95 or 100 or 105. And who knows? Maybe it was 95 yesterday but is 100 today. Who cares? What possible difference does the number on a meter make? It might be the same level I enjoy. It also might be so far above my maximum willing to work with you level, that you will know that we will never work together. Again, something else I can tell right away without needing a meter to read the number to me. If you come in and play too loud for my taste and refuse to turn down, then we won't work together. I couldn't care less whether you're playing at 100 or 110 or 120 whatever. "But, I've got my meter right here! I'm only playing at 100 dbc at 3 ft!" "Oh, well excuse me then...go right ahead keep blasting the rest of the band away so that it makes our rehearsal impossible. My bad...."???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Drummer44 Posted December 24, 2015 Members Share Posted December 24, 2015 You actually spend/waste time at rehearsal measuring db levels??? Can I ask for what purpose? I've never needed a db meter to tell me if I thought something was too loud or not. Pretty sure that's what my ears and my brain are for. If you don't measure, and it only takes a few seconds to turn the app on, you don't really know how loud things are. If you've spent the day in a noisy environment, things won't sound as loud as if you've been in a very quiet environment all day. Measuring is the only sure way of telling. Nah, I can tell when things are too loud. Easy. For example, if I can still distinguish my tinnitus, external sound levels are generally OK. I used a meter sometime back in the mid-'90s for some kind of (non-music) project I was fooling with at the time. Can't remember what my purpose was... The meter readings were interesting, but not particularly useful. -D44 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members senorblues Posted December 24, 2015 Members Share Posted December 24, 2015 Everybody's talking about volume, but tone and sustain are a huge component. If you've got a poppin' groove going, I like it loud. I remember hearing "The Meters" at the Cellar Door in DC. (yeah, it was 40 yrs ago....) Much louder than I expected, but I dug it. But.... if you turn up your distorted power chords and the drummer starts bashing away, treating his ride like a crash, I'm leaving. Part of it's personal taste, but all the audiologists tell you about sustained volume. . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 24, 2015 Members Share Posted December 24, 2015 Everybody's talking about volume, but tone and sustain are a huge component. Very true point. A db meter isn't going to help you much along these regards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members senorblues Posted December 24, 2015 Members Share Posted December 24, 2015 I remember when my parents generation thought that early R&R was loud noise - keep in mind we're talking about Chuck Berry, when amps were a lot smaller than they are now. I wonder what the db readings were on his shows compared to Count Basie! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 24, 2015 Members Share Posted December 24, 2015 I remember when my parents generation thought that early R&R was loud noise - keep in mind we're talking about Chuck Berry, when amps were a lot smaller than they are now. I wonder what the db readings were on his shows compared to Count Basie! Yeah, it's all relative I guess. My folks thought it was all "loud noise" too. Doubt it really had anything to do with the volume, but just the stylings of everything. Snare drums and cymbals and harsh sounding guitars and vocals that sounding more like shouting to them than singing. Today it's sub-bass tones and compressed & auto-tuned vocals that are the "loud noise". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted December 24, 2015 Members Share Posted December 24, 2015 Hmmmm yeah I have no idea what level we practice at, what level our stage volume is and how loud our FOH is. All I know is that it's appropriate in all instances. Do do you state the desired db level in ads for players? To be honest we don't get the chance to practice as a group. Our singer lives 3 hours away and our kyb player lives an hour and a half away. We work on our own. The bass player & I get together here & there. We will get together the day before NYE to work some stuff out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted December 25, 2015 Author Members Share Posted December 25, 2015 I'm a sound guy, not just a musician. I need to know how loud things are and not just how I perceive them. I've got a couple of senior variety show groups. Dancers with artificial joints, singers over 80. And the audiences are mostly seniors also. Too loud for them is a serious problem and not loud enough is also a problem. You have way more flexibility when young. (40 db up to 130 db.) Older audiences aren't comfortable over 100 db. Their hearing starts to distort the sound at higher volumes. (And I'm 62.) These are issues you won't know until you're old. (And then you will wonder who is running the sound so badly.) If you're under 20, you wonder what this is all about. When I was 20 I was playing rock and roll at levels low enough to hear the audience and boy were they dancing. (And not screaming.) People would come into the club and not leave until we started packing up. Having a full house at the end of every night was great. IT DOESN'T REQUIRE HIGH VOLUME. And High Volume will chase people away even today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 25, 2015 Members Share Posted December 25, 2015 I'm a sound guy, not just a musician. I need to know how loud things are and not just how I perceive them. I've got a couple of senior variety show groups. Dancers with artificial joints, singers over 80. And the audiences are mostly seniors also. Too loud for them is a serious problem and not loud enough is also a problem. You have way more flexibility when young. (40 db up to 130 db.) Older audiences aren't comfortable over 100 db. Their hearing starts to distort the sound at higher volumes. (And I'm 62.) These are issues you won't know until you're old. (And then you will wonder who is running the sound so badly.) If you're under 20, you wonder what this is all about. When I was 20 I was playing rock and roll at levels low enough to hear the audience and boy were they dancing. (And not screaming.) People would come into the club and not leave until we started packing up. Having a full house at the end of every night was great. IT DOESN'T REQUIRE HIGH VOLUME. And High Volume will chase people away even today. Being under 20 has nothing to do with it. I'm 54 and I have no idea what you're talking about. First of all, there's is no magic db number for older audiences or anyone else. Where did you come up with 100 db from? Second of all, when I was 20 I was playing rock and roll at ear bleeding volumes and people would come in and stay all night and not leave until we started packing up. Having a full house at the end of the night was wonderful. Its about doing what's appropriate for the gig. Your past might be different than others experienced. No one cares. It was the past for both of us. Third of all, nobody in this thread is arguing for loud volumes. You're arguing against imaginary villains here. Do I have to tell you for yet another time that I only rehearse and perform at very low volumes? And I don't need a db meter to pull it off. Must be magic? Seriously. If the only way you can tell if something is too loud for your audience is to use a db meter, then maybe your hearing is too shot for you to be doing sound anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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