Members Vito Corleone Posted December 17, 2015 Members Share Posted December 17, 2015 Have you compared that 3D sound to the sound of a simulator such as the one Guido mentioned? You don't get that "3D" sound unless you actually feel the soundwaves coming out of the cabinet swooshing around your head. Although, listening to the sim through a pair of headphones is pretty darn close. As far as how it compares to a mic'd Leslie cabinet? Here's one 'shootout' that was done online. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=251&v=HJ8VtgxL_IA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted December 17, 2015 Members Share Posted December 17, 2015 Since the Leslie loses its mojo when a mic is brought close to it, the obvious answer is to suspend it from the ceiling over the dance floor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted December 18, 2015 Author Members Share Posted December 18, 2015 OK, someone out there must know who Jimmy Smith was. (Died a few years ago.) I saw him live in Denver playing Pat Bianchi's personal B-3 through 2 Leslies. (Probably two 40 watt amps in 122 cabinets.) The Leslie's weren't mic'd. Jimmy was the king of jazz played on a B-3 Hammond. (Most considered him the best in the entire world. He clearly defined the Hammond as a Jazz instrument.) There were probably 350 people in attendance. It was glorious!!! He was 75 years old and needed help getting safely up onto the stage. But the moment he sat down, the master was in command. Did I mention he always handled the organ and bass from the organ. Pedals and left hand. You really should listen to a recording. When I saw him, he had a guitarist, drummer and sax man. Probably none under the age of 65. They were great and it was as good a concert as I've ever seen anywhere. So the master playing through 80 watts of 360 degree Leslies and holding down the bass for the band too. My Leslies are 70, 90 and 125 watts respectively. (Models, 825, 760, 860) I have more capabilities and don't carry the weight of the bass too. So as long as the guitarist doesn't get carried away. (Or drummer or any other player) My Leslies are up to the realistic needs of a any club I've ever played in. Outdoors I bring them all. Indoors one should be enough. I'm not a Nazi about them. I've had one of them since 1970, the second since 1980 and my newest acquisition just this year. I enjoy bringing old school equipment out when the space is available. (Reason I own a 1972 White Kustom guitar amp, two 1965 Kustom PA speakers, and three Leslies from the 1970s. I've also got a 1960 something Italian built Vox Continental Organ.) Now the organ's rotary sound. My gig rig organ is a Roland VK-77. All the Roland VK organs should have the same rotary sound unit. It's really quite good and this coming from a Leslie user from the early 70s. Any of you shouldn't have too much difficulty finding one to hear what it sounds like. Just bare in mind that I think it's fine, but Leslies are better. (And they take up more space.) It's surely one of those things that musicians sometimes do that an audience will never appreciate. (Like playing a favorite guitar.) you should also note that any quality organ on the market today has an 11 pin leslie out. (Hammonds, Rolands......) They are expecting us to want to play them through a Leslie. And new Leslies cost about $2500 and are about 200 watts. Not a small investment and doesn't even include the keyboard. (Compared to the loud guitarist's $300 amp and $500 guitar. I paid nearly $3000 for a used VK-77 organ. Guitarists have it cheap.) And a well built 40 watt guitar amp pushed can drown out any Leslie. (Maybe not a 950, but I've never seen anyone use one at a gig. Look them up and you'll understand why not.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 18, 2015 Members Share Posted December 18, 2015 OK, someone out there must know who Jimmy Smith was. (Died a few years ago.) I saw him live in Denver playing Pat Bianchi's personal B-3 through 2 Leslies. (Probably two 40 watt amps in 122 cabinets.) The Leslie's weren't mic'd. Jimmy was the king of jazz played on a B-3 Hammond. (Most considered him the best in the entire world. He clearly defined the Hammond as a Jazz instrument.) There were probably 350 people in attendance. It was glorious!!! He was 75 years old and needed help getting safely up onto the stage. But the moment he sat down, the master was in command. Did I mention he always handled the organ and bass from the organ. Pedals and left hand. You really should listen to a recording. When I saw him, he had a guitarist, drummer and sax man. Probably none under the age of 65. They were great and it was as good a concert as I've ever seen anywhere. Yes, I know who Jimmy Smith was. I have no doubt that concert was amazing. But are you playing instrumental jazz? No. Are you playing left hand bass on the organ or playing with a standup bass like Smith did? No. Are you playing for audiences all over 65 who are mostly there to hear WynnD play his organ and the others in the band are mostly just hired guns there to support him? No. Learn your audiences; learn your venues; learn your gigs. How old are you, man? You haven't figured THAT much out yet? Seriously? Are you REALLY comparing yourself to Jimmy Smith???? Seriously??? Again...sorry to break it to you, but you simply play in some local cover band, where you're just one of many members. You don't get to pretend you're Jimmy Smith while the guitarist gets to pretend he's Jimi Hendrix while the drummer gets to pretend he's Buddy Rich all at the same time. Sorry, but that's not the formula for a successful cover band. Just doesn't work that way. So the master playing through 80 watts of 360 degree Leslies and holding down the bass for the band too. "360 degree Leslies" Really? Did he put them in the middle of the room? No. I bet it is on stage behind him. If you were in the audience, you didn't hear "360 degree Leslie". It might as well have been mic'd, right? My Leslies are 70, 90 and 125 watts respectively. (Models, 825, 760, 860) I have more capabilities and don't carry the weight of the bass too. So as long as the guitarist doesn't get carried away. (Or drummer or any other player) My Leslies are up to the realistic needs of a any club I've ever played in. Outdoors I bring them all. Indoors one should be enough. I'm not a Nazi about them. I've had one of them since 1970, the second since 1980 and my newest acquisition just this year. I enjoy bringing old school equipment out when the space is available. (Reason I own a 1972 White Kustom guitar amp, two 1965 Kustom PA speakers, and three Leslies from the 1970s. I've also got a 1960 something Italian built Vox Continental Organ.) Fascinating. But I'm still caught up on this thing where you want to bring your Leslies UNLESS they need to be mic'd, and then you just use the simulators. Obviously you think it's really important that the audience hears the un-mic'd Leslie sound that you're putting out with your cover band. Otherwise, why bother using the Leslie. I don't get that and still kind of need it explained to me. I get if somebody likes the sound of a real Leslie for themselves and is willing to go through the trouble/effort to have it onstage. That's cool. I get that. But that you decide to leave it at home unless the audience can hear it un-mic'd? Sorry...but maybe I'm missing something here? Now the organ's rotary sound. My gig rig organ is a Roland VK-77. All the Roland VK organs should have the same rotary sound unit. It's really quite good and this coming from a Leslie user from the early 70s. Any of you shouldn't have too much difficulty finding one to hear what it sounds like. Just bare in mind that I think it's fine, but Leslies are better. (And they take up more space.) It's surely one of those things that musicians sometimes do that an audience will never appreciate. (Like playing a favorite guitar.) you should also note that any quality organ on the market today has an 11 pin leslie out. (Hammonds, Rolands......) They are expecting us to want to play them through a Leslie. And new Leslies cost about $2500 and are about 200 watts. Not a small investment and doesn't even include the keyboard. (Compared to the loud guitarist's $300 amp and $500 guitar. I paid nearly $3000 for a used VK-77 organ. Guitarists have it cheap.) And a well built 40 watt guitar amp pushed can drown out any Leslie. (Maybe not a 950, but I've never seen anyone use one at a gig. Look them up and you'll understand why not.) I just fell asleep. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Drummer44 Posted December 18, 2015 Members Share Posted December 18, 2015 I enjoy bringing old school equipment out when the space is available. Just bare in mind that I think it's fine, but Leslies are better. (And they take up more space.) It's surely one of those things that musicians sometimes do that an audience will never appreciate. (Like playing a favorite guitar.) I get that, fair enough. Got my own favorites that an audience won't notice. But that also brings with it some dependence on the other musicians: like depending on them to not drown you out. Or irritation with them when they do. Et cetera. IOW, you're part of the situation, too; your decision to use whatever favorite equipment isn't implemented in a vacuum. IOOW, if somebody else turns up too loud so your stuff gets lost in the mix... then you're part of the cause/effect/solution, too. Options exist. Simply complaining about loud guitarists (or whatevers) seems to be least useful. -D44 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Drummer44 Posted December 18, 2015 Members Share Posted December 18, 2015 Seriously? Are you REALLY comparing yourself to Jimmy Smith???? Seriously??? I didn't take it that he was doing that. -D44 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted December 18, 2015 CMS Author Share Posted December 18, 2015 Now on to loud musicians. I've really gotten to the point where a loud musician at an audition will be a loud musician always. We just move onto another person auditioning. The lower volume is that valuable to me and most of the others I'm working with. It's more important than the playing ability of the musician. I will always take a worse musician who can play at a lower volume over a guitar-god who is loud. I'm probably wrong about not telling those that are being by passed for being loud, that we aren't going any farther because they are loud. I'm guessing they've already been pissed off by people asking them to turn down frequently. I'm not interested in becoming their next complainer. That's about the most unreasonable thing I've read regarding an audition. Is the candidate playing in a familiar room? With a band that he knows? If either question is answered "no", then how the hell is he supposed to know where to put his level? If you're going to be a volume freak, at least have the courtesy of letting the candidate know where you'd like him/her to be. A simple thumbs up and down to "get it right" for you is fine. It would be even more advantageous to both of you if you let him know how insanely important low volume is. You might be surprised to know how many like this, and how many don't, if actually told about it up front. If the candidate is told once and doesn't get it, then by all means move on. But saying nothing and using volume in an unfamiliar room with a new band? Sorry, but that's just ridiculous. And to set the level here, I'm the guy who usually leaves a show if the band is too loud, or I bring hearing protection for events that I'm stuck with (running sound, or taking my kids to a concert being primary examples). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted December 18, 2015 Members Share Posted December 18, 2015 Last Saturday I did a gig on a somewhat large stage, I still almost bonked a singer on the head. Because many bass players like to be on the hi-hat side of the drums,, I often take the floor tom side. If I was a lefty I would enjoy that side even more due to the bonkless factor, but as it is, I'm happy to be further from the snare drum. In fact, I recently met a bass player that didn't like the hi-hat side because he had lost hearing due to the snare drum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 18, 2015 Members Share Posted December 18, 2015 I didn't take it that he was doing that. -D44 I certainly could have misread it. (wouldn't be the first time I did that...lol). But where I don't think I did is that my point here is that in a band we all have to compromise and work together. And if the OP is defending his desire to have his entire everyone-is-at-least-relatively-equal cover band perform at a stage volume level that accommodates his being able to use a Leslie cabinet without micing it because Jimmy Smith did so is not exactly treating everyone in the band equally, is it? I don't see how taking that stance is any different than a guitarist who insists he needs a wall of Marshall stacks at full volume because he saw Steve Vai (or whoever) do that at a concert and it was awesome! If you're the star of the show and the name on the marquee? Sure. You call the shots and everyone acquiesces to what you want. Because you're the one paying them, if for no other reason. You fire them and hire somebody else if they don't like the rules. But when we are talking about the types of cover bands and gigs most of us are doing around here? Those sorts of attitudes don't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members senorblues Posted December 18, 2015 Members Share Posted December 18, 2015 I totally get where Wynn is coming from. This is a generational thing. We grew up musically in an era that predates the British invasion and Marshall amps. We know that it's possible to dance to a band that plays at a lower volume than has been considered the norm since the early 70s. That doesn't mean we're stuck in a time warp - after all a lot of the music that you hear in clubs was recorded and performed before then. More to the point, a lot of it that made the charts since then can also be played at what we consider to be a more civilized volume - one where musicians can hear each other without monitors, and where the clientele can actually have a conversation and not be driven out of the room. Today - 2015 - clubs of all sizes are constantly complaining about bands playing too loud. Fact. Does this apply to all rooms, all styles of music, and all bands? Nope, but what we'll call old school volume is still often a reasonable choice and shouldn't be dissed just because it's not part of your experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted December 18, 2015 Members Share Posted December 18, 2015 And new Leslies cost about $2500 and are about 200 watts. Not a small investment and doesn't even include the keyboard. (Compared to the loud guitarist's $300 amp and $500 guitar. I paid nearly $3000 for a used VK-77 organ. Guitarists have it cheap.) Obviously you roll with a different caliber of guitarist than myself. Here's my rig: 1988 Ibanez Jem 77SK $2500 1989 Ibanez Jem 77FP $2500 1984 Marshall 100W JCM800 head $2500 Marshall JCM 212 cabinet $400 Close to $8000 sitting in that corner. Don't get me started on the $49,000 in sound & light gear I bring to a gig. Keyboardists have it cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 18, 2015 Members Share Posted December 18, 2015 I totally get where Wynn is coming from. This is a generational thing. We grew up musically in an era that predates the British invasion and Marshall amps. We know that it's possible to dance to a band that plays at a lower volume than has been considered the norm since the early 70s. That doesn't mean we're stuck in a time warp - after all a lot of the music that you hear in clubs was recorded and performed before then. More to the point, a lot of it that made the charts since then can also be played at what we consider to be a more civilized volume - one where musicians can hear each other without monitors, and where the clientele can actually have a conversation and not be driven out of the room. Today - 2015 - clubs of all sizes are constantly complaining about bands playing too loud. Fact. Does this apply to all rooms, all styles of music, and all bands? Nope, but what we'll call old school volume is still often a reasonable choice and shouldn't be dissed just because it's not part of your experience. I don't see it as a generational thing at all. I presume most of the players he's complaining about are his age as well. (Which probably isn't all that much older than me anyway). I don't like loud bands either. My band doesn't play loud (except when appropriate--and even then, the volume is nothing even remotely close to the "loud rock band in small nightclub" levels that we're all typically used to when we talk about volume levels that run off audiences. We're not The Who...lol). We have an EXTREMLY low stage volume (even at loud gigs) and I explained how and why we have attained that. Others have offered advice on how to lower stage volume as well. But he dismisses out of hand all those suggestions for how to achieve lower stage volume. Why? It has nothing to do with the volume, but WHY he wants it low. He wants it low for the selfish concerns of his own gear and his personal enjoyment of it and everyone else in the band who might have their own selfish desires/needs is "someone he won't work with" nor will he even give the ground rules to during an audition. He exposed himself pretty clearly: his desire for low stage volume revolves around this concept in his head that the audience needs to hear his Leslie un-mic'd. If that can't be achieved, then he's fine leaving the Leslie at home. Meanwhile, he's walking around with his db meter and lecturing everyone on the specs of every piece of gear he has ever owned and likely on their gear as well. Some of us have been in bands that have been working together for years and years. Others are seemingly spending decades still searching for the right players and the right situation. That has nothing to do with age or volume. That's simply knowing how to get along with others and work in a band situation. You treat everything like it's your own solo project? Fine. But then you need to be the name on the marquee who draws the crowds and pays the bills. Otherwise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 18, 2015 Members Share Posted December 18, 2015 Obviously you roll with a different caliber of guitarist than myself. Here's my rig: 1988 Ibanez Jem 77SK $2500 1989 Ibanez Jem 77FP $2500 1984 Marshall 100W JCM800 head $2500 Marshall JCM 212 cabinet $400 Close to $8000 sitting in that corner. Don't get me started on the $49,000 in sound & light gear I bring to a gig. Keyboardists have it cheap. Hey now! My $2999 Korg Kronos and $1699 Yamaha MOXF8 are far from getting off cheap! And that's just getting started on what's in my rig! Good gear ain't cheap, period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted December 18, 2015 Members Share Posted December 18, 2015 Are you the bandleader or a side man? If the band is "WynnD and his Magic Technicolor Leslie" than fine, you're calling the shots. If you're the keyboardist in the band, you have to learn to play nice with others. It won't alwaus be perfect. What if you play a festival? Out of curiosity, I see you have a bass in your avatar. When you play bass in a band, is it the bass that sets the stage volume? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted December 18, 2015 Author Members Share Posted December 18, 2015 I was only comparing the functional output of the Leslies. Seemed to me that some thought I was overly harsh on loud guitarists because I would be drowned out. I don't play with those guys anymore. They are just not worth the trouble. And without regard to if I can keep up with them, I can with straight amps, if the Leslies aren't loud enough, I don't want to work with them because I don't like it that loud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted December 18, 2015 Author Members Share Posted December 18, 2015 Auditions always seem to occur in small rooms and being too loud is way too easy everywhere I've ever been. Everyone should expect they need to turn down just looking around. You probably should start about 1/3rd the volume and turn up if needed. That should work everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted December 18, 2015 Author Members Share Posted December 18, 2015 Some drummers really kill the snare. I've seen it, but it doesn't make sense to me. The best drummers I've ever heard don't have these problems. (And I've had the pleasure to work with some of them.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted December 18, 2015 Author Members Share Posted December 18, 2015 Real simple. If the band is too loud for me to use a Leslie, it's really too loud for me anyway. I don't fire anyone. I do walk away gladly. I've only had to do that a few times over the 40+ years I've been gigging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted December 18, 2015 Author Members Share Posted December 18, 2015 I've got about $7500 in keyboards and about $5K in PA equipment. Much as been bought used. The VK-77 organ was about $8K new without anything to play it through. It is a better organ than is needed, but there was a time, not very long ago, that a keyboard player was expected to have $20K just to be considered equipped well enough for a band. Now you have obviously spent way more than required to start gigging respected for your equipment. Most guitars under $1K are good enough. Most amps under $1K are good enough to be considered pro-level equipment. Just try to find a B3 Hammond for less than $6K used. It clearly was the standard for organ in the Rock, Blues and Jazz worlds. And if you can find a band where your band mates don't mind moving a 475 pound organ in and out of a club, you might find people willing to back off so the effort isn't wasted. (Note the Leslies are additional weight beyond the nearly 1/4 ton organ and you need a van, a ramp, and space.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted December 18, 2015 Author Members Share Posted December 18, 2015 Sorry you thought I was dismissing your suggestions. They were all solid ones. I'm not sure I can get everyone on that page, but my two current bands are rehearsing at lower volumes to begin with. I'm even able to rehearse with my smallest Leslie and not even be taxing it. Think the bassist in one band is using a 100 watt bass amp. I'm responsible for all the bass in the other band even when playing keyboards. (I've done that before in a rock band.) My Bass amp is an Ampeg Portaflex with 2 x 10" speakers. I'm fully expecting to be playing pedals for bass while playing keyboards. (Through the Leslie. Single 15" speaker and a 50 watt amp.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted December 18, 2015 Author Members Share Posted December 18, 2015 Not for me. I hear bass very well. It's the portion of my hearing that's nearly untouched by old age. I have two hearing aids for the upper mid and higher that I started wearing last year. Obviously I can't use them when gigging. When I'm not playing bass, I want to be as far from the bassist as the stage will allow. I will always be able to hear it. When I'm playing bass, I'm standing at the front of the stage while my Amp is in the backline. I always have lots of headroom left over. (Always start with my bass about 50% on the volume control.) By the way, I built the bass in my Avatar. All the woodwork is my own, including the neck. (Compound radius curve, ebony fingerboard on maple and walnut. Plays quite nicely.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 19, 2015 Members Share Posted December 19, 2015 So most cheaper guitars and amps are "good enough", but nothing less than a B3 and a Leslie will do? And hopefully you can find band mates willing to help you haul it around and play quietly enough so it's worth everyone's effort?? Hmmmm and hmmmm..., Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Drummer44 Posted December 19, 2015 Members Share Posted December 19, 2015 For that "audition" thing... I've pre-emptively captured that process for us, to a certain extent, by making our (my) music room (practice room, jam room, etc.) available when we want to invite someone into the group. I can play the "I'm not schlepping the kit just for a lousy audition..." card, but in return, I also upgraded the PA so guitar/keyboard amps became unnecessary (here, and usually). And that means I mostly have control over Joe Newguy's volume, and control over the whole mix in general. Problem solved. I'm not thrilled by loud either, and I'm "of an age" (like that pre-Marshall idea, above) where I'm no longer expected to exhibit all the patience in the free world... but mostly there are ways to work it all out. Negotiations are usually successful; often that's simply a matter of communicating what's ideal, what's acceptable, balancing a bit when it comes to competing ideas, etc. If that or other solutions don't work, I'm all good with that "write when ya get work -- or don't" outcome. But in general, it's usually fixable... one way or the other... -D44 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted December 19, 2015 CMS Author Share Posted December 19, 2015 Wynn, you seem to be missing my point entirely. It's not about the physical space or its acoustics. You're not communicating your expectations to the candidate. He/she shouldn't know what to expect at all. How does the candidate know you don't hate low volume players and want them to blast the room? You're potentially removing great bandmates by creating a guessing game of the audition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted December 19, 2015 CMS Author Share Posted December 19, 2015 It's very important to understand that your compromised hearing will have an adverse effect on your interpretation of not only what's a balanced mix but what is "loud". I've mentioned this to you already, but IEM's with professionally molded inserts are almost a must-have for you. They'll allow you to get the mix and the level exactly as you want it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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