shitty monitor mix

[J.Paul]

So walk me through this like I'm an idiot ( as Dave Ramsey would say ) ...

 

when any instrument or vocal sounds horrible in the current monitor

if you play a CD through the monitor (to A/B and test the EQs and "sound") and it ALSO sounds like ass....

 

I am NOT an engineer but common sense tells me (and YOU btw ) that if I put a CD in (through the monitor) and it sounds "honky" (like **************** and NOT anywhere near like the the Grammy award winning CD that is playing) ...... that any amount if EQ-ing to the individual vocal (guitar/kick or whatever) will not help (if the master EQ is already dipped/cut and generally destroyed from room.... )

 

Monitor = transistor radio

 

I would do the same thing if I was an engineer (just keep cutting until there is not feedback ) which means the monitor sounds like ass at that point.

 

I am fairly certain this is a common problem, however I have not noticed it posted here.

 

DO YOU:

 

A) quite and stomp off like the rock star you are

B) have sex w/ the soundman's wife/girlfriend and call it even

C) suffer your liveguy fate w/ bad youtubes to follow

D) ask the soundman to re-EQ only to have him cut the same room (node) frequencies again

E) post on your (dead? ) forum and watch it come alive into the mouth of truth

[trevcda]

For a one off fly in gig? Work with Monitor World until you determine that the monitor system and/or the guy operating it is incapable of giving you what you need. Then do the gig, get paid and move on to the next show and put it behind you. I played a casino a couple of years ago with some nice EAW Microwedges. As I stepped up to check my vocal mic the monitor sounds like ass; chopped up response, no definition, no body, etc. I remarked, on mic, that who ever had this mix the night before must have been stone deaf. Someone replies on talk back saying, "Yeah that was Vince Neil's mix from last night, we forgot to reset the EQ. Hold on..." Suddenly everything was as it should be!

[J.Paul]

Yeah. OK. That's actually a fair and lucid response...

 

This is day 43 (or something like that) and NOT a one off fly date at a house gig w/ a permanent install (in which they are also "saving" and/or "loading" the mixes from the digital board wrong whereas the mixes are f****d up every day. Digital fail. The soundman is qualified. I believe it is a corporate issue w/ the company telling him that he must use THIS board and THIS software (same old digital Behringer and Ipad we're all using on this forum BTW)....

 

Is it fair to expect a "normal" sounding vocal (with your mic) in the monitor when a CD doesn't sound normal (in the monitor)?

No.

Correct?

 

Too many nodes in the room? Not my problem.

 

6 more weeks to go on this gig

 

Be an asshole?

Or just don't sing?

(BTW there is a severe language barrier ... the only one that speaks fluent english is the line chef in the kitchen).

The production team is very good but not delivering for our main singer.

[trevcda]

45 down and 35 to go? Language barrier? Sounds like you're out on contract with a cruise line. Can't exactly rage quit and storm off in that situation. Unless there is something wrong with the digital board, I don't think the sound man is very qualified. At least with the given equipment. There hundreds of that same board out on professional stages that are providing a more than adequate sound. Not to mention the thousands in garages and bars. Doesn't exactly help your situation, though.

 

Perhaps check out google translate or an app on your phone, so you can get a dialogue going with your sound man. That way maybe he will understand your needs better and you will understand his limitations. Maybe find a happy medium to make the rest of your tenure tolerable.

 

I would also suggest downloading the manual and learning everything you can about the equipment he's using, so that you can work with him and make better suggestions on improving the situation. All of this is presuming that he/they are even willing to work with you at this point. At some point they seem to shut down and tell what you've got is what you're getting.

 

Should you ever get to the point where a dialogue is happening, ask him to start by turning down the send to your monitor and flattening the EQ for that send (assuming he's inserted one on that send) and see how that sounds. Monitor eqs(both digital on the board and an analog in amp rack), in the wrong hands, often have a tendency to accumulate many years of frequency cuts if the operator never bothers to flatten them, especially in an install situation. You know, the old "it worked last week, it'll work this week." attitude. Are all of the components of the monitor functioning? A non-functioning woofer in a two-way monitor would sound like a transistor radio. Not that I'm old enough to know what that would sound like. Okay, so I am. Anyway just some food for thought.

[J.Paul]

Good stuff there

 

This scenario repeats itself on 90% of the mainland "professional" American stages over and over as well.

It's not an issue when I bring my little $200 powered wedge and just use that (instead of their "professional" system) but that's not an option here..

 

I hate that when an "artist" checks and the road manager/stage manager makes the venue and /or production company get it right (even if they have to hold the doors) they are just being pro ... but if a "cover act" does the same thing they are being assholes.

 

WTF

[StratGuy22]

I hear you. As a sound guy I often run the monitor mixes pretty flat. I'll shelf the low end and take a bit off the highs to buy a little forgiveness. I don't spend all day constantly slicing and diving trying to squeeze every little bit if GBF out of it. I find by doing that, you can end up losing a lot of the meat, and like you said it ends up sounding like a transistor radio. I'll give it a bit of a tweek if it needs it but generally it's fine.

 

I rarely get feedback and we are running decent levels. I provided my rig for one show and their tech did just that. Hacked & slashed. When he was done, everything was so close to feeding back that he couldn't even get the monitors up. It was my first time in the venue so I felt bad because the rig wasn't performing like it could. The artist was frustrated, the tech was frustrated, I was frustrated.

 

It was a frustrating night. Thankfully I was back there 2 weeks later and I was doing the teching. They were MUCH happier with the job I did. The national act had a blast and said everything sounded great.

[wesg]

Any chance you could just lower your stage volume, so that the tech doesn't have to cut so many room modes? A {censored}ty monitor mix is usually preferable to feedback, but a good-sound quiet stage usually makes for a pretty good product.

[wesg]

And for the record, I {censored}ing hate this bull{censored} anti-swearing mother{censored}ing piece of {censored} technology. {censored}!

[J.Paul]

LOL

 

The stage is relatively quiet, drums are behind a shield (on the opposite side of the stage),

our FOH A/ V asked me to turn UP actually (I started around 94 db), he's got me running about 99 db now (it's not completely isolated but I have it shielded)- it's a very large room. Bass is maybe 93 - 94 db, keys could come down some but isn't causing the overall sound pressure level enough problems.

 

There are also issues where the saving and loading of the digital snapshot is being performed wrong (which seems to be really common) where we start out everyday NOT with the mix we tweaked all night and ended up with but with the same mix we started with the day before .... as well as reverb sometimes being there and sometimes not (of course FOH swears it's in the monitors when it's not), same ole BS we all deal with..... but that's not my reason for posting. Back to my original question :

 

If your wedge is so dipped, and cut that a CD doesn't even sound decent through it

then it is logical to assume that NOTHING is going to sound decent through it.

Correct?

 

 

[wesg]

It's quite possible to have a wedge that sounds lousy with a CD, but fine for vocals. But that's not really important.

 

What's important is WHY is your wedge being set up like that? You've said the guy needs to cut room modes. Room modes are function of the shape (etc) of the room, and you're stuck with the room. So, why do the modes need cutting? I'm assuming you're having feedback or "whooom". There's a variety of ways to deal with those

- get rid of compression in the monitors

- get rid of reverb in the monitors

- make EQ cuts in the relevant bands

- get quieter

- move/change your speakers

- move/change your mics

 

Maybe more, I am not a seasoned pro. But the first thing that just jumped out at me your complaint about lacking reverb in monitors - you don't need it, and it lowers GBF.

 

I'm also curious about the bandwidth of the cuts. If it is too wide and you are really pushing GBF your mix will get really dull. A 31-ch is as wide as you can go and be useful in this regard IMO. A parametric EQ with a really narrow Q is a better choice. Room modes are extremely narrow.

 

As for little kids -- if they are old enough to be on the web unsupervised, they are old enough to read the word "{censored}ty" IMO.

 

Wes

[J.Paul]

It's quite possible to have a wedge that sounds lousy with a CD, but fine for vocals. But that's not really important.

Are you sure? Or are you just guessing?

 

But the first thing that just jumped out at me your complaint about lacking reverb in monitors - you don't need it, and it lowers GBF.

No I don't NEED reverb, or sidefills, or a stage, but they're all elements that add icing on the cake and are doable with this kind of a production.

My statement about lacking reverb has nothing to do with NEEDING reverb, that observation was made to point out that the mix is different everyday.

 

What's important is WHY is your wedge being set up like that? You've said the guy needs to cut room modes. Room modes are function of the shape (etc) of the room, and you're stuck with the room. So, why do the modes need cutting? I'm assuming you're having feedback or "whooom". There's a variety of ways to deal with those

- get rid of compression in the monitors

- get rid of reverb in the monitors

- make EQ cuts in the relevant bands

- get quieter

- move/change your speakers

- move/change your mics

 

There's not an issue with feedback.

It just sounds bad.

I'm just guessing that it sounds bad because he he is cutting alot of frequencies in my wedge (and perhaps the singer's wedge), which leads me to assume that there is some kind of node or anomoly in the room. Don't know, I'm just guessing.... in any case feedback isn't an issue.

 

I'm also curious about the bandwidth of the cuts. If it is too wide and you are really pushing GBF your mix will get really dull. A 31-ch is as wide as you can go and be useful in this regard IMO. A parametric EQ with a really narrow Q is a better choice. Room modes are extremely narrow.

This is a good point. I'd considered this last week but communicating the concept is too much for the language barrier. I have used the google translate and it is ineffective. I might try a paid app for translation and see if it works...

 

 

 

[dan88z]

I've found that a mid rangey vocal mix actually cuts thru the band better. You voice doesn't have 100hz or 4000hz in it.

[wesg]

Yep. On a loud stage, I sometimes like a boost around 2.5kHz for my monitors. I find it easier to hear myself without turning me right up, although I would not want to hear a CD played like that!

 

BTW, you say in one sentence that he is cutting lots of freqs, presumably because of room modes, and that feedback isn't an issue.

 

Is feedback an issue when those cuts aren't made? That is the key question! If he is making those cuts because there will be feedback without them, then either you need to live with them, or change something...stage volume, compression in monitors, reverb in monitors, monitor placement, mic placement, mic type, etc.

 

Wes

[J.Paul]

I listened to tonight's mix w/ this thread in mind and really don't have much to complain about, I've certainly had worse mixes.

The rest of the production is world class to these monitors that sound dull and pedestrian; it just seem to pale in comparison to the FOH, lights, and video they are using (which are stellar). Perhaps {censored}ty is a relative term. What is {censored}ty to Paul McCartney might be gold to GG Allin.

[J.Paul]

BTW, you say in one sentence that he is cutting lots of freqs, presumably because of room modes, and that feedback isn't an issue.

 

Is feedback an issue when those cuts aren't made? That is the key question!

 

I really don't know. Feedback doesn't seem to have been an issue...

Although he did move my station over and back a couple of feet (farther from the mains) a week or two ago (which is usually the 2nd or 3rd thing they do to combat feedback) but I have not actually heard feedback from the stage or over the mains.

 

Not sure what it sounds like flat, although we are the 1st band to use this system ... it's not like there has been 20 years of Vince Neil mixes to turn the system upside down. HA

 

[sventvkg]

Paul, can you get a send from him into a small board or a small headphone/in ear monitor setup and use some wired ears?

 

The monitor mixes shouldn't sound bad at all if he's using the Behringer stuff. It could be the monitors themselves. Blown, messed up etc? Otherwise it's user error. As a lead singer it's my absolute NIGHTMARE dealing with bad monitors. It's really a non starter.

[sventvkg]

user error. If he isn't up to date EXACTLY with the latest firmware on the Behringer software it causes problems. Trust me, I learned this first hand.

 

Yes it sounds like he has everything cut out of it which should NOT be the case. Shelve the low and highs. Cut the mud frequencies and adjust to taste. If it's a good speaker it should sound nice, full and basically great. MINIMAL feedback if any at your stage volume.

 

Again the great thing about ears is you can create your own custom stage environment, panning, reverb etc...No feedback.

 

It's very rare to having reverb in the wedge monitors. If someone wanted that I would probably do one wet and one dry just for vocals. I never use reverb in a wedge because it ALWAYS causes feedback problems, then you are carving frequencies and it ends up sounding like crap....

[t_e_l_e]

what all are you running through your monitors?

rule of thump is it to keep it as simple as possible.

if only vocals are in the monitors and the monitor eq is set to suit the vocals (what ever that means) i doubt a full range mix of a cd will sound good.

if you have keys, you add one factor of complexity to it. but it is still manageable.

if you need to add guitars, so be it, but only that much amount what is really necessary and not in a way you would mix your master tape of your cd.

 

unless you are using electronic drum kit, there should not be the need to add them in the monitors.

also the bass should be out of the monitor mix.

 

all troubles of the monitor mix start out, if you need to add bass and/or drums to the monitor mix.

especially the bass parts of bass and drums absorb so much energy, that you need to have to run them very high in the monitor mix, so they get heard. this absorb so much space in the monitor mix, that almost nothing is left for the rest. next thing you do is a compromise in pulling bass (and drums) down in the monitor (with the fader and/or with eq) to make space for the rest, so nobody hears bass and drums as good as it would be needed, and the rest sounds sh*ty as well...

 

monitor cabinets are not made to deliver good bass response

 

by any means, if you can avoid drums and bass in the monitor mix in the first place, everything becomes much easier. adjust the stage volume of the guitar to the volume of the bass and let the drummer play the right volume, everything else should be a no brainer.

 

if you can't hear the bass on stage and asking the sound guy to put the bass to the monitors, is the first step for a horrible stage sound and there is no way back if you do this in the mid of the gig, this horrible experience will last until the end of the gig...

[J.Paul]

what all are you running through your monitors?

rule of thump is it to keep it as simple as possible.

if only vocals are in the monitors and the monitor eq is set to suit the vocals (what ever that means) i doubt a full range mix of a cd will sound good.

if you have keys, you add one factor of complexity to it. but it is still manageable.

if you need to add guitars, so be it, but only that much amount what is really necessary and not in a way you would mix your master tape of your cd.

 

unless you are using electronic drum kit, there should not be the need to add them in the monitors.

also the bass should be out of the monitor mix.

 

all troubles of the monitor mix start out, if you need to add bass and/or drums to the monitor mix.

especially the bass parts of bass and drums absorb so much energy, that you need to have to run them very high in the monitor mix, so they get heard. this absorb so much space in the monitor mix, that almost nothing is left for the rest. next thing you do is a compromise in pulling bass (and drums) down in the monitor (with the fader and/or with eq) to make space for the rest, so nobody hears bass and drums as good as it would be needed, and the rest sounds sh*ty as well...

 

monitor cabinets are not made to deliver good bass response

 

by any means, if you can avoid drums and bass in the monitor mix in the first place, everything becomes much easier. adjust the stage volume of the guitar to the volume of the bass and let the drummer play the right volume, everything else should be a no brainer.

 

if you can't hear the bass on stage and asking the sound guy to put the bass to the monitors, is the first step for a horrible stage sound and there is no way back if you do this in the mid of the gig, this horrible experience will last until the end of the gig...

 

This is great advice for anyone that is unaware of these tips.

Keep it to a minimum and don't clutter your mix if you can help it

(God made sidefills for the rest of the junk that masks your mix kids)

 

This mix is 90% vocal 10% guitar 10% high hat (he's all the way across the stage behind a shield).

I typically am guilty of too much bass guitar in everything (because I love bass guitar) but I'm standing right next to the bassist so there isn't any of him in my mix at this venue. I don't know what the monitor is EQ-ed for and I bet most of the engineers in this forum would take offense at me or anyone else "taking charge" of the process and double checking his eq curve, gates, verbs, sends, or anything else sound related. We are rehearsing tomorrow so maybe I'll get a chance to tweak some since our FOH guy will be there...... the vocal in the monitor was brighter (and better) tonight ~~~ of course it was... why in the hell would it be the same as it was yesterday or the day before ? There WAS minor feedback tonight, from our singer ... sounded like too much vocal in her wedge. BTW our singer routinely asks for NO vocal in her wedge. .... awesome.

[J.Paul]

So a quick update :

 

We changed vocal mics and it resolved everything. My monitor mix (and level) is still pretty minimal but my vocal is now loud enough to hear myself through FOH (my vocal was barely in the front of house mix before).

 

I am guessing that the pattern of the mic we are now using is giving our engineer more headroom and less problems.

 

Oh and ugh Merry Christmas

[RoadRanger]

We changed vocal mics and it resolved everything.

What were you using and what do you use now? One band I joined had a mish-mash of mics and were having these kinds of problems. Two of the mics were Audi OM2's so I talked the BL into gettin' a three-park of them to replace the others and things magically got better .

 

 

[wesg]

Having matched vocal mics, regardless of pattern, is beneficial because it makes EQing the room easier: all the mics will have the same peaks/valleys that may or may not match up with room modes. This is especially true if you a single monitor mix.

[StratGuy22]

I use good old SM58's all around. Basic, strong enough for the odd clown we get, and you know what to expect.