Forum Experience

[garthman]

Well folks, here's my worthless take on the forum. People have died, people have gotten older and sickly making it hard for them to play, people have been isolated by nastiness at times, people have given up the guitar, software problems have created problems, corporate ownership has weakened the forum on occasion, and some have actually gone back to work so they don't have time for this anymore. You can't BLAME anything on any one thing in particular and if the forum would stop looking for a scapegoat and go back to music and acoustic guitar playing and making I'm sure participation would again increase.

 

Bigal

 

Hey Al! Good to see you. I think you're right.

 

I believe most of the regular forum members want a place where you can discuss music and guitars with the odd dash of off-topic flippancy and humour and/or subdued controversy. And why not? It's life, after all!

[Idunno]

 

Hey Al! Good to see you. I think you're right.

 

I believe most of the regular forum members want a place where you can discuss music and guitars with the odd dash of off-topic flippancy and humour and/or subdued controversy. And why not? It's life, after all!

 

Agreed. The sterility of the topic resolves itself to an assumed common interest in the forum members regarding materials and their use in crafting a guitar - first and foremost - to a tertiary (orbiting just out of reach and common interest) treatment of actually playing them. The latter is almost out of place. Same holds true in most of the gear spooge forums.

 

Pretty sad, really. Personally I don't give a rip about the culmination of materials and workmanship in much of anything man-made from space exploration to marine exploration and all the bits found between; not in the how-to sense of it all. Is that sad in and of itself? Maybe, if you're smitten with the desire to align yourself with builders of all things who've gone before you, or within contemporary reach. I'm not. I just play the damned things.

 

That leaves me with off-topic tendencies and the constabulary is either genuinely or politically motivated to ward off such conduct va site rules in hand and ban language-worn keyboard buttons. But, that's the gig. I do notice a frequency of tolerated off-topic threads in the political forum. It's a dichotomy down there, though, where anything off-topic usually finds the common ground between mud-slinging sessions. That's actually a good thing so I see the tolerance to be well-judged.

[Idunno]

I've yet to smell a synthetic guitar that had that nice, woody, new guitar smell.

 

I've only tried a few (besides Ovations, of which I've owned several) - a Martin with a synthetic back, a couple of Rainsongs - and based on that relatively small and narrow sample, I wasn't that impressed. They're sustainable and durable, but there's still something missing - or at least different enough about their sound that I still find the sound of wood guitars preferable. YMMV.

 

 

I held the same sensory values, for lack of a better-stated opinion, and left that as the single most important aspect of the instrument.

 

Then, something clicked and I questioned the sacredness of that aspect. Being an atheist, these revelations come often to me regarding all my species-induced conventional and traditional influences of known historical reverence. IOW, how's about letting myself dispense with the other guy's notions and work up some of my own for the litmus to decide.

 

So, I checked out the carbon fiber variations of the same theme and found them to pass that test.

 

I cannot claim to know what "woody" sounds like. In a blind test I'm sure we all would fail it and wagers would be won. I'd even make book on that. My experience with wood guitars notswithstanding, there's an unspoken religiousness about them that beget the scorn of many when tread upon. Fair enough, evolution is a word that simply means change over time and I'd expect nothing less from the demographic steeped in the other guy's opinions.

 

Then, there's the sustainable aspect that is simply dismissed by the words "I prefer a wood guitar". I'm not a tree-hugging ecologist by any measure but I do have to tip my hat to those who've brought to us a conscience in the form of choice.

 

 

[DeepEnd]

I've yet to smell a synthetic guitar that had that nice' date=' woody, new guitar smell. . . .[/quote']

Since plastics absorb odors, it seems like they could impregnate them with wood resin or some such and make it smell like wood. Since "new car smell" supposedly causes cancer (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1719214.stm) and that probably applies to the smell of synthetic guitars, it would be nice to have something to take its place.

[Singsong]

 

Hey Al! Good to see you. I think you're right.

 

I believe most of the regular forum members want a place where you can discuss music and guitars with the odd dash of off-topic flippancy and humour and/or subdued controversy. And why not? It's life, after all!

 

Exactly ^ But facts are some people are over snobby on this guitar forum

and many people know such and so left because of it .

[garthman]

 

Exactly ^ But facts are some people are over snobby on this guitar forum

and many people know such and so left because of it .

 

Well. Snobs occasionally come but often quickly go. We can all have fun without being rude and insulting.

[fatback]

That's what's wrong with this place. It knows too much on the topic. There's nothing to discuss anymore. I see on other forums the questions this place fielded and flamed out many years ago. If we were to have some new member post a serious poll on "Your favorite bridge pin material" I'm not sure anyone here would take it seriously, much less bother to answer it.

 

Hence the near-zero participation here. And, after all those info-swapping years that eventually leveled the field in general topic knowledge, none of it inspired people to take playing to heart. Evidence the VOM1T apathy.

 

So, why are we here? Old habits? Wishful thinking? Waiting for me or someone else to act inappropriately for the giggles of it? The new management isn't supportive of off-topic banter or the shenanigans of the past. They want us to be their happy one-stop acoustic guitar info dissemination and discussion center and dispense with the off-topic escapades. That we've done and it's now such a hoot we're all too giddy to meaningfully post.

 

Well, how's about a nice game of Thermonuclear Warfare?

 

Let's talk the merits of complete replacement of naturally occurring materials with man-made sustainability in acoustic guitars. There's a new, yet oh so repugnant on-topic foray into the characteristics of composites and their acoustic sound properties no one here has openly divulged, to my knowledge. And, because there isn't any sonic references we can use to compare and/or describe the merits of composite materials to, we shun their discussion. Admittedly, discussion will probably remain unapproachable because of that but let's get real; with every new guitar of naturally occurring material I get a little wince. I can't be alone.

 

Also, atmospheric impact on wood species has been a confounder of sound produced from my guitars unless I stay on top of it like white on rice. A few points north in the RH and I get mud. A few points south and I'm probably looking at a fret buzz (very low action). If you keep your action an appreciable distance above the fret wires then you're good to go. But, I bought a particular sound that I liked and it's a slave to the humidity. A composite guitar is not sensitive as such.

 

I have the pleasure of having played some Rainsongs recently. Impressive...most impressive. Nothing about them struck me as familiar sounding relative to my experience with tonewood(s) but that's not an issue with me. Is the sound pleasant? Yes. Does it have to sound like RW or Maple or Cedar or Redwood or Myrtlewood or Mahogany, etc? No, it doesn't. Do I have to like the sound? Yes. This is where I find myself now. I do not have to have a wood guitar to produce a nice acoustic sound. I have dropped my previous high-brow opinion of the use of man-made materials. My only exception is Ovation. I still defer them to people who like them.

 

On the other material of so-called HPL, I keep a thin-bodied Martin that has the all HPL black body with the stratabond (SP?) neck at work for grins when I arrive before or hang past normal work hours. I play that thing plugged because the body is too thin to produce the lower freqs of a sufficient depth to give a nice balance. But, the company owner keeps his Martin dread there with the same (wood grain) body and a poor quality spruce top (IMO) and same neck. It sounds pretty good unplugged. In any case, I can create adequate noise with HPL as well.

 

What say any of you? Any experience with composites that might be worth a discussion relative to replacing wood use?

 

A very good idea -

 

Tone wood - humbug and until I can afford them - the tone's in the figures man! ​But seriously, as we get older our hearing begins to fail anyway - so who of us here can truly tell the difference.

 

When Hi Fi was all the rage, I bought myself a Garrard turntable and a Amstrad amplifier Wharfedale speakers. Worst mistake of my life - all I could hear was the dinks and clicks where I used to hear the music. I now listen to music with tiny speakers (actually a little too tiny - I think I'll pay for a ten pounds for the pair next time)

 

Phil​

[EdBega]

The designated T-lad smilie... hehe

 

[DeepEnd]

The designated T-lad smilie... hehe

 

Dear Lord, was he back again? I notice someone with a relatively low post count and fairly recent join date is already banned. Looks like I missed his most recent manifestation.

[EdBega]

Dear Lord, was he back again? I notice someone with a relatively low post count and fairly recent join date is already banned. Looks like I missed his most recent manifestation.

 

Yep apparently he got loose and was terrorizing the villagers again...

[Idunno]

 

A very good idea -

 

Tone wood - humbug and until I can afford them - the tone's in the figures man! ​But seriously, as we get older our hearing begins to fail anyway - so who of us here can truly tell the difference.

 

When Hi Fi was all the rage, I bought myself a Garrard turntable and a Amstrad amplifier Wharfedale speakers. Worst mistake of my life - all I could hear was the dinks and clicks where I used to hear the music. I now listen to music with tiny speakers (actually a little too tiny - I think I'll pay for a ten pounds for the pair next time)

 

Phil​

 

Tinnitus keeps me from hearing much of the nuances between guitars these days so the switch to carbon fiber isn't a problem.

[fatback]

I hope you still enjoy playing though

 

Phil

[g6120]

What is killing HC forums you ask? Quite simple... social networks like FaceBook, Twitter, Snapchat, LinkedIn.... they are all tremendous time sucks. I like to play my acoustic guitar, not talk about it. That's why I stay away from gear discussions for the most part. When i first came on to the forum and posted videos of songs I play I remember StackaBones objected to me "spamming" the forum. But I persevered and he calmed down and started VOM1T... then he disappeared!

[Anderton]

I think idunno brings up some very valid points (which also provide perspective on some of his other recent posts). In general, all forums are not "what they used to be" before social media networks took over. It's sort of like TV. When there were four networks, each one had huge "market share." Then cable came along and splintered that. Then streaming came along and cut into cable. The "pie" is as big as always, maybe even bigger, but the "slice" for each entity gets smaller and smaller.

 

Also, there is no doubt that Harmony Central was seriously damaged by ill-advised platform changes mandated by the previous management. As the forums became unusable, fewer people wanted to use them...understandably so. It also didn't help that former HC

Editor Jon Chappell, a superb acoustic guitarist in his own right and a contributor to this forum, suffered a stroke and was not able to participate any more.

 

That said, traffic for Harmony Central has increased considerably compared to last year. Part of that is people coming back, part of it is new people. After Thanksgiving we will be upgrading vBulletin to the most recent version, which should improve the overall experience.

 

However, a study of industry trends is interesting. Sales of acoustic guitars are on the upswing, which implies that as players become more accomplished on their instruments, more music will be made using acoustic guitars. Personally, I always used to see a barrier between acoustic music / electric music but have been blending acoustic instruments with rock and electronics more and more...there's something about J-45 purring in the background that can help propel any track. And tellingly, at the recent EDM-centric International Music Summit in Ibiza, one of the most popular acts, Thalab, was doing dance music but it was a more subtle variety that leaned heavily on acoustic guitar and other acoustic instruments...so there's a potential for new types of crossovers.

 

Ultimately all HC can do is provide a home for people to air their viewpoints and create an environment. A community is what the community makes it. Although we can try to start topics of interest to people, that's just priming the pump, not pumping.

 

What I think may happen with forums is they will become more like references than chat rooms. Facebook and such can take care of "the moment," but a place like HC can build up a body of knowledge in the forums that, aided by good search capabilities, would hopefully have long-term relevance.

 

 

[bieke]

I can't believe that traffic is up, well, depends on what software you use, the free ones aren't that accurate, so I don't trust those numbers, but the first one I checked gives less traffic now than last year. It seems that most visitors just check the front page, and maybe click on something of interest, Most are just visitors. As for new members, yup tons of new members sign up, but they don't post much, I just checked the last 500 new members all together started abut 15 threads and have all together 36 posts. That's not much. And most of them don't sta. And the old timers, well, I've seen a couple of familiar names dropping by to say hello, but not many that stay around, a handful maybe this year. Still a long way to go. Lots of subforums with not much going on, Political forum seems to be the exception, that's still a tight little community.

 

[Grant Harding]

I think you summed it up very well Craig. I'm still along for the ride, but the whole idea of an Internet forum has morphed due to social media.

 

More targeted and more like a resource than a clubhouse.

[bieke]

Social media is something else, I think the platform changes caused more harm to the community. And I don't know why but the HC community is just not recovering yet. Other forums are doing great. take boring TGP for example, twice as much traffic as a year ago. Forums can coexist with social media, There's a HC group on Facebook, not much happening there, there is also a forum started by a group of HC regulars, that is quite active.

[Grant Harding]

I don't think the two are separate. I think that other forum is going through the same thing, despite the volume of posts. It's all slight variations on a handful of topics. You reach a point where there's only so much you say about a limited subject like electric guitar.

[Grant Harding]

Plus I suspect there are a LOT of people that use whatever forum is the most popular as a vehicle for their own commercial interests.

[Idunno]

I like that forum where private builders are the major sponsorship and the membership (often) asks questions about which of the so-called boutique builders provide the best bang for the buck. Talk about faux pas central. I visit the place when I'm feeling low or stupid, which can also be often, for the company.

[Anderton]

I can't believe that traffic is up' date=' well, depends on what software you use, the free ones aren't that accurate, so I don't trust those numbers, but the first one I checked gives less traffic now than last year.[/quote']

 

Well, you often talk about how great the Gear Page is doing, but Alexa shows a steep drop over the past six months...so who's is right, Alexa or you? I don't know.

 

 

We use Google Analytics which measures the entire site, not just the forums. For a hard statistic, the traffic for the last 30 days was up 22% compared to the same 30 days a year ago.

 

Much of last month's increase was due to more people coming for the content, which is often linked to from other sites (one reason for HC's high SEO). These people tend to come for the article, read it, and then leave. They don't go to the forums unless they see the FORUMS link in the nav bar and are curious enough click on it. We would like to get more of these people to participate in the forums, and more of the forum members to check out the content.

 

Content has always been a very important part of Harmony Central and there is much interest shifting toward that. As people become more familiar with the content and keep coming back, hopefully at some point they'll want to participate in the forums too.

 

As for new members, yup tons of new members sign up, but they don't post much, I just checked the last 500 new members all together started abut 15 threads and have all together 36 posts. That's not much.

 

Actually that stat is consistent with the estimates about internet forums in general that for every post, there are 10-20 lurkers.

 

Still a long way to go.

 

So tell other people to come here, instead of telling us people aren't coming here. Frankly, posts like the one to which I'm responding do nothing to encourage people to participate...quite the opposite.

 

 

[Anderton]

Social media is something else' date=' I think the platform changes caused more harm to the community. And I don't know why but the HC community is just not recovering yet.[/quote']

 

Gibson only acquired Harmony Central in April, and it took several months for some fixes to be made. For example people outside of the US have only been able to post consistently for a couple months, and with non-US traffic traditionally making up 50% of the visitors (excluding spammers, of course), that was a huge hit. Issues with text entry weren't resolved for a few months. We still haven't upgraded to the latest version of vBulletin although that will happen after Thanksgiving. Phil and Chris didn't become employees until June. The forums have been (mostly) fully functional for, what, a few months?

 

You can't undo five years of damage in six months. You can certainly complain that we haven't undone five years of damage in six months, but that doesn't help undo the damage. Participation with interesting topics and useful responses, as well as better content than what is found on most web sites, will help undo the damage.

 

 

[Anderton]

And one more general, non-HC-specific thought: There hasn't been a lot to talk about. The music industry is in decline, all genres of music are either flat or declining in terms of sales and/or streams except for EDM, and a lot of products are either variations on existing products or reproductions of older products. It's a very different landscape from the 80s, when sampling, MIDI, FM synthesis, and sequencers hit, or the 90s, when digital recording and computer ubiquity happened. Those were what drove forums for the next decade and more.

[bieke]

 

Well, you often talk about how great the Gear Page is doing, but Alexa shows a steep drop over the past six months...so who's is right, Alexa or you? I don't know.

 

 

We use Google Analytics which measures the entire site, not just the forums. For a hard statistic, the traffic for the last 30 days was up 22% compared to the same 30 days a year ago.

 

Much of last month's increase was due to more people coming for the content, which is often linked to from other sites (one reason for HC's high SEO). These people tend to come for the article, read it, and then leave. They don't go to the forums unless they see the FORUMS link in the nav bar and are curious enough click on it. We would like to get more of these people to participate in the forums, and more of the forum members to check out the content.

 

Content has always been a very important part of Harmony Central and there is much interest shifting toward that. As people become more familiar with the content and keep coming back, hopefully at some point they'll want to participate in the forums too.

 

 

 

Actually that stat is consistent with the estimates about internet forums in general that for every post, there are 10-20 lurkers.

 

 

 

So tell other people to come here, instead of telling us people aren't coming here. Frankly, posts like the one to which I'm responding do nothing to encourage people to participate...quite the opposite.

 

 

yup, TGP is doing great,and Alexa, well is just an indicator, the Alexa rankings are never right ( their ranking system is estimated with the use of toolbar, not with the genuine number of global traffic), anyway, it's not about who's right, but fact isn the HC forums are not doing well, nd I often said it had to do with the software switches, TGP also switched software, quite succesfully, I often said I did not understand why HC went with vB5, it is "functional" but still sub par compared to other forum software. I don't know if upgrading to 5.1.9 is gong to make much difference, it's seems a little faster, but still lacks a lot of functionalities, most important is that it has a fix to prevent site hacks, when vB was hacked a couple of weeks ago, it took em a couple of days to come up with a fix, a couple of other forums that run on vB were hacked as well. Anyway, forums are changing from vB to something else,whereas HC changed to vB, I never understood this.

 

Indeed, the strength of HC is the content, the articles are what the HC visitors are looking at,

another strenght could be the legacy content but there is no proper advanced search tool on the site, so it is hard to browse the legacy content

same with the reviews, hard to navigate through, used to be very popular, reviews showed up in Google searches, no longer do, no longer is pleasant to browse user reviews.

 

the forums, well it took 15 years to build the community and 5 years to kill the community, hmmm, 15 years to build it back up again ? I don't know, these things take time, the Euro crowd remains absent, about 10-20 active posters I think, ROW is also not much, it's no longer a global community,and lurkers, well, this puzzles me, why are there so many new members signing up and not posting, and never posting, about 80% of the members have 0 posts, strange.

 

I used to spread the word about HC a lot, and most people have heard of HC and have been visting the site, but nowadays, HC is not the goto site for many,it is a bit uncool nowadays.

 

 

[Idunno]

Well I rode a while, for a mile or so

Down the road to the eighteenth avenue

And the people I saw were the people I know

And they all came down to take a view

 

Oh the path was dark and borderless

Down the road to the eighteenth avenue

And it stung my tongue to repeat the words

That I used to use only yesterday

 

Meanings just dropped to the ground

I tried to remember what I thought

And what I used to say

"Don't let me go down" no don't let me go

 

Oh my hands were tied as I struggled inside

The empty waste of another day

Memories were blank to my eyes

The fire and the glory of that night

Seemed safely locked away

Too hungry to rise. Too hungry to...

 

Well I rode a while, for a mile or so

Down the road to the eighteenth avenue

And the people I saw were the people I know

And they all came down to take a view

 

Oh the path was dark and borderless

Down the road to the eighteenth avenue

But my head felt better as I turned the car

And the airport slowly came to view

 

One mile said the sign...

 

Checked my bags and made it straight to end gate 22

Made it just in time, boy you've made it just in time

 

-18th Avenue, Cat Stevens