Intonation Question

[Nijyo]

Hi All,

 

I finally got around to playing with this again last weekend. I swapped out the string for another one (my usual .009 slinkies) and it didn't change anything at all (which is a good thing, as, overall, the instrument sounds fine to my ears now).

 

As Caffeinated Cat, knotty and badpenguin's experiences seem to suggest, that's just how this guitar seems to be.

 

 

[Grant Harding]

C'est la vie. It's just like that.

[Chordite]

As a scientist "It's just like that" grates There has to be a reason for that slight change in frequency and, as the string and body are a resonant system I think this effect may be something to do with it.

 

[video=youtube_share;W1TMZASCR-I]

[badpenguin]

I agree with ya Chord! "It's just like that" doesn't work for me either. BUT, sometimes it is "Just like that". his guitar might be off a millimeter in the neck pocket, or at the bridge, maybe both. Having the saddle all the back on the E string is the compensation for the tiny boo boos in manufacturing.

I have a Douglas tele that I bought a 3 barrel compensated tele bridge for, and the only way to get the intonation in, was to reverse 2 of the saddles. Is it "correct"? No, but it's perfect. Some guitars are "just like that".

[Nijyo]

I agree with ya Chord! "It's just like that" doesn't work for me either. BUT, sometimes it is "Just like that". his guitar might be off a millimeter in the neck pocket, or at the bridge, maybe both. Having the saddle all the back on the E string is the compensation for the tiny boo boos in manufacturing.

I have a Douglas tele that I bought a 3 barrel compensated tele bridge for, and the only way to get the intonation in, was to reverse 2 of the saddles. Is it "correct"? No, but it's perfect. Some guitars are "just like that".

 

Yeah, pretty much. I mean, I love this RG, but it's not exactly "custom shop" quality (though it is pretty nice for an RG-lettersalad, which is why I picked it up so long ago, much nicer "overall" than I had come to expect from a sub-$500 guitar).

[badpenguin]

Well, I am of the opinion that Ibanez builds the best sub $1000 on the planet.

[1001gear]

RGs are a multi intonation fail. I have an RG570 with a similar problem.

 

In loose general order:

Extra jumbo frets aren't exactly the most precise string stops. Worn jumbos (as you might find on a properly wanked RG) will put you in a unique microtonal dimension.

 

Perfect intonation sounds progressively flat as you go up the fretboard. IOW a perfect octave up will sound low. This effect is exaggerated in a melodic context. Ultra sustaining saturated tone makes this especially obvious. There's that RG again.

 

Simply bending will stretch the string unevenly and flatten the intonation period. Add the inevitable superstrat wanking especially with a floating Floyd and you may need fresh strings every pass.

 

So say you've done the "by ear" stretch intonation and it sounds ok BUT your frets are worn and your strings are tired. Chances are only the plain strings and the frettage beneath them are worn. That would drop the pitch of the wanked strings leaving the wounds especially the bottom in new condition and sounding especially sharp.

 

You can just have a tech do the setup and change strings after each use. Mine will stay in the case.

[badpenguin]

I think that's the inherent design flaw with any guitar, not just jumbo frets. As the fret wears, you have this surface area the width of a pin as the string contact being worn down to the width of a nail. That millimeter difference, between the center of the fret, to the edge of the fret, would make intonation go sharp over time. Yes, you could re-crown every few weeks, and eventually re-fret. Expensive and changes the feel of your well loved guitar constantly.

 

The only guitar I know of that addressed this issue, was the Bond step guitar, (Or electra glide I think I was called.) from the 80's. Had steps instead of frets, and allowed for, theoretically at least, perfect intonation. Until the strings made grooves in the fret board, and caused the intonation to go flat over time.

[Grant Harding]

What was the result when you checked the intonation with a capo on the first fret?

[WRGKMC]

I don't know, I can ball park mine with a ruler and come very close to having mine set to specs before I even plug a tuner in.

 

I do set all my instruments up the same however and I keep my frets in top shape.

 

Strings are the first item I'd want to try. I have specific brands that give me excellent results. I've already weeded out the sets that give me oddball intonation setting. Some of them like Fender strings are horrendous. I can easily see someone maxing out their saddles and never getting them intonated.

 

I have three main brands I can switch between and do very little tweaking. GHS, Safarzo, LaBella, *Some Ernie Ball sets, and *Some SIT Sets too. The rest I have to reconfigure my settings. D'Addario are a bit strange in the 9~46 gauge I use. They have some strings in the set that have weird tensions when set to specs. I quit using DR because I couldn't intonate them right. A few others are OK, some are a waste of time.

 

Beyond that, I set my High E for 3/64ths with a ruler and the low E for 5/64ths in height.

 

My nuts are cut (ouch) so the strings just clear all frets all the way back to the nut with the last fret held down.

 

I also set my relief so I can hold the first and last frets down and the strings just clear all the frets between.

 

Lastly, I set the High E saddle to Scale and add 1mm towards the tail in most cases. I usually start with it at scale however.

 

The B string I set 2mm beyond scale,

The G string is 3mm beyond scale

The D is 2mm "

The A is 3mm "

Low E is 4mm "

 

For some guitars I may increase the High E to start at 2MM beyond scale but never shorter then scale length. I may also use slightly more or less then 1mm depending on the string gauges.

 

I usually keep the rations between the saddles the same however. 1,2,3 -,2,3,4

 

Heavier strings this may change. If I'm using a wrapped third I may set it up 1, 3, 2, 3, 4, 5 mm back from scale length. Heavier strings need more compensation then thinner strings. Instead of using single or half millimeters I may use 1.5 mm to ball park the saddles.

 

This setup is nearly identical to the Fender setup guide and it does work. http://www2.fender.com/support/artic...r-setup-guide/

 

I just modify for my own use and add shortcuts and such. They use the diameter of the strings as a gauge to figure how far back the saddles need to be from scale length. I simply rough it out with a ruler using the scale length to the apex/string contact point of each string.

 

You should only do it with new strings too. Once a strings been on there and has wear, you'll get all kinds of freak results.

 

The main thing is as with all troubleshooting, if you use a standard baseline and first bring the settings to factory specs, finding flaws is much easier. Measure things out and a good number of compound problems are eliminated. In the process of setting it to specs you have to be aware of what's preventing it from working at factory specs.

 

For example, If I set my nut height up correctly and I'm getting string buzz around the middle of the neck, I may have to look at the frets, relief or string height as well.

 

Relief requires a straight edge for both the frets and the fretboard. If you use a notched straight edge and measure the fretboard itself and I have around .009" clearance around the middle of the neck, I know I've got the right truss tension about right. If I then use a flat straight edge on the frets themselves a I get .015' clearance, in the middle of the fret board, it tells me I have worn frets in the center of the neck.

 

Having identified a problem I may be able to compensate for the flaw with the other adjustments, but I may not obtain optimum playability till I level the frets and have both the frets and fretboard set for the proper relief.

 

If I back bow the fretboard to get the worn frets level I usually wind up having wacked out things happen that don't make sense ( which may include situations like the OP is having)

 

If the nut and neck are good, Frets are crowned etc, getting string height may be next. If you have independent saddles, using an under string radius is a Key tool to have. I used to use feeler gauges to set up individual string heights. Its difficult but it can be done with a little math work. The under string radius gauges cuts the time doing that down to nothing. Just set the height of the two E strings and the other 4 are adjusted so they just touch the gauge.

 

From there setting intonation is relatively simple. If you find the strings are sharp after the basic setup based on measuring string length first, use small tweaks, maybe a 1/4 turn at a time or less. More then that and you may have to retweak the truss. As the string gets longer, tension goes up and relief often increases.

 

If all strings are slightly sharp, tweak all the saddles back 1/4 turn, retune and recheck.

If only the low strings are sharp, change your compensation ratio. Instead of using 1mm between saddles, try 1/16" between them. This would be like having a floating bridge and moving only the low side towards the tail. All saddles would move on the low side getting progressively smaller towards the high E.

 

You want to get the low and High E set for intonation, before you fine tweak the saddles in between, but its important you keep the distance ratio between saddles at the same time.

 

After you get the High and low saddles correct, then fine tweaking the others is usually a matter of maybe 1/2 turn either way. If you don't see them coming in, check the relief and height. You have to constantly rotate the adjustments between Relief, Height and Intonation in a cycle until there are no adjustments left to be made.

 

Try and avoid "feel" when doing an initial setup. Judging a setup on how it feels before you even get the instrument to specs is going to lead you down a deep rabbit hole, especially if you been playing the instrument with a bad setup for a long time. First get it set to specs using measurement tools. Then think of it as a new instrument and play it that way for a week or two.

 

Then if you find something uncomfortable, first investigate what is off, then select the best option to fix it. If the strings are high, don't just adjust the height. you have to redo Relief and intonation when you adjust height because all three adjustments are interdependent. One affects the others.

 

Someone also mentioned, you may also have unique flaws or attributes to the instrument that require a little compensation. This is often true, but try and fix the flaw if possible. Some are impossible to fix without major reconstruction. A fret slot incorrectly cut has few options besides replacing the fret board or neck, but you may be able to crown the fret slightly sharp or flat. you also know to avoid using that fret as a baseline for your adjustments. Why throw ever other fret out of whack tweaking the instrument to make one one problem fret to sound right?

 

Also let the guitar set a couple of days after setting things to specs. The neck has to have time to settle in to the new tension. Then go back over the adjustments.

 

Most importantly use your ears. Don't let the tuner dictate everything you do. Guitars are tempered instruments so its impossible for the tuner to read every fret properly. Some frets may be sharp and others flat. Use string harmonics vs fretted notes for fine tweaking. Just be sure the open strings are in tune at all times when you do it.

 

Try backing off on the pickups if you have strong magnets too because it can make setups impossible when they are too close. Keep a 3mm minimum from the string with the last frets held down. You can tweak them back after you know its setup right.

 

I've come across very few guitars in nearly 50 years where this method doesn't work. Even if an instrument is flawed, having it set close to specs can usually let you play it better then something all wacked out specs. Ears are pretty tolerant, especially if someone's plays well.

[Chordite]

Cue Knotty

[knotty]

Dont get hung up on it. The guitar is an inherently unprecise instrument as badpenguin said. Get it close enough and play it. You can spend many happy hours trying to acheive the impossible.