Drop c tuning 4 string, which size strings are best

[customdrum]

Total newbie to bass guitar but not to guitars in general and have 2 bass's now and Im looking to drop tune to c tuning or cgcf on one of the bass's and not sure which string size works the best.

Heres a list of strings I would assume would be used for drop c tunings

ernie ball 2831 = 55, 75, 90, 110

dr ddt55 = 55, 75, 95,115

dunlop 55115 heavy core = 55 ,75, 95, 115

dr ddt50= 50,70,90,110

D'Addario EXL160BT = 50, 67, 90, 120

 

I would think the daddario 120 would not fit on my bass without some nut filing which i dont really want to do unless i have to. not even sure it would go through the bridges hole lol

 

 

[DeepEnd]

For C G C F, the 4th string will be two full tones lower than normal. The 5th or B string on a 5-string is typically a 0.130. To retain the same tension a semitone higher, you'd need to reduce the diameter of the string by roughly 6% or down to about 0.123 or so. You don't want the 4th string to be too floppy so figure on at least a 0.115 if not a 0.120. Personally, of the strings you listed, I'd lean toward the d'Addarios based on gauge alone but the Dunlops would probably work. If you're concerned about the strings fitting, take your bass in and have it set up for the heavier strings. Shops that routinely work on basses will have the necessary tools to get it in shape. They'll also need to intonate the bass properly for the heavier strings.

[customdrum]

thre is only 1 music store here and they want 50.00 to install a guitar nut, needless to say they wont get my money.

I was leaning towards the daddarios at 1st but worried ill have to file the nut for 4th and 3rd string but if it has to be done it has to be done.

[WRGKMC]

Anything below D on the low E gets really wonky on my basses using normal strings. You get too loose and the string twangs sharp and bends sharp at the frets too easily making it especially difficult to produce decent tones.

 

You can buy strings designed for low tuning. The main element isn't their over all diameter, its the thickness of their cores that need to be larger to maintain stiffness and provide the right tension tuning lower. DR makes some for the 4 string. http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DRDDT45?adpos=1t1&creative=83968244161&device=c&matchtype=b&network=g&gclid=CJPS-pmZycYCFQyoaQodI4gKVg

 

You may still need to recalibrate the instrument setup for the strings. relief and Intonation. You change string tension both are affected.

 

Personally I'd just save up for a 5 string.

[Mr Temporary]

It's pretty easy to do the calculations for string tension, and that's where I'd start. The D'Addario site has all the info you need. You'll probably find that they'll have a set that's reasonably close to what you calculate.

 

Nuts are easy enough to replace as well. If you haven't done it before, I highly recommend using a feeler gauge to help set the string height at the nut. Otherwise, any guitar tech should be able to knock out the nut for you.

 

If it were me, I'd sell one of the basses and either make or buy something with a longer scale. I've been very happy with the fanned fret 5 string I have.

[customdrum]

yeah the D'Addario EXL160BT are already balanced weight which is nice but worried about the 120 being to big on this bass to play easily and to even fit through the bridge, i see bands playing 50-110 on 4 strings but they must be extra long scale to do drop c tuning.

 

I just bought a brand new ibanez gsr320 4 string last week for 99.00 and trying to sell it now, played it for 3 whole mintues and didnt like the feel, maple fretboard is so much better than rosewood for me and its just way to light weight, feels about 2lbs less than the samick.

I may just sell both basses and buy a 5 string

At 1st I bought a cheapo used samick greg bennett bass on ebay last month for 65.00 shipped and i think it plays better then the ibanez, this is the one i was going to put larger gauge strings on . the ibby is just way to clean sounding to want to put fuzz and distortin on.

[WRGKMC]

I bought one of those Vox StompLab 1B Modeling Bass Guitar Effects Pedals. Its get one of the best octave/pitch harmonize bass effects I've tried so far. Practically no delay and extremely stable pitches without jitter.

 

Instead of tuning down you can just step on the box and get those low notes up to an octave down. Doesn't cost much more then a set of strings, Plus you have all the other amps sims, drive and any other effects you can use. Very soulful sounding too. I have about a half dozen of other bass boxes like this for recording and live and none come close to having the deep tones this one has in a box its price. Very easy to operate and save presets too.

[Systolic]

I used EB Cobalt Power Slinkys, the 55-110s, in drop C with little to no issue even on a cheap bass.

[DeepEnd]

It's pretty easy to do the calculations for string tension' date=' and that's where I'd start. The D'Addario site has all the info you need. . . .[/quote']

^ +1. Go here: http://www.daddario.com/upload/tension_chart_13934.pdf. Scroll down to where it says "Electric Bass." You'll see that a 0.130 produces 34.5 lbs. tension tuned to B, a 0.125 produces 35.2 lbs. tension tuned to C, and a 0.120 produces 32.0 lbs. tension tuned to C. You want to stay in that ballpark.

 

. . . You can buy strings designed for low tuning. The main element isn't their over all diameter, its the thickness of their cores that need to be larger to maintain stiffness and provide the right tension tuning lower. . . .

 

. . . You may still need to recalibrate the instrument setup for the strings. relief and Intonation. You change string tension both are affected. . . .

Sort of. Overall tension depends on the size of the core but you also need to consider mass. A skinny string with a heavy core will have tension but there won't be as much mass to vibrate, sort of like playing bass through a 5" speaker. The d'Addario guide I linked above gives the formula if you're interested. Still, nice to see that you also pointed out that the bass will need to be set up and intonated.

[isaac42]

Tension and stiffness are not the same thing, though many people seem to confuse them. They are related, of course, and that helps to confuse things.

 

A thick core will be stiffer at any given tension, but the size of the core does not directly affect the tension. Tension is determined by the active length of the string (nut to bridge), the pitch it's tuned to and the mass per unit length. Nothing else. Assuming the same length and pitch, a thick, stiff core with thin windings won't put any more tension on the neck than a thin core with thick windings, as long as they have the same mass per unit length, but it will feel stiffer.

[customdrum]

yeah i was looking at one of those last night on youtube, seems to be the exact same as the korg ax3b same exact sounds

[WRGKMC]

Hey guys, the windings don't add tension they only add mass. If the core snaps the wraps simply unwind.

 

Tension goes down when you tune down. Having larger core strings brings that tension back up to normal. That's why I posted strings specifically designed for under tuning. The stiffness and intonation should be about the same as normal strings tuned to concert pitch.

 

You have the same thing for guitar strings. You can buy oversized core strings designed for under tuning which minimize having to jack with your truss and intonation as much. I've used the large core guitar strings and they work fairly well. Haven't tried large core on bass but its the same principal.

 

When you choose normal bass strings of different gauges, the core wires don't change that much, surely not 20% going from 100 to 120. Its the outside wraps that are thicker or thinner. The core wires do vary between manufacturers and yes the materials do come into play but the main thing is it doesn't take allot of change in core size to change the stiffness.

 

I need to dig out my micrometer and do another comparison to show you. I did it here once a long time ago so I'm not sure the post even exists any more but its pretty simple to do. I'm pretty sure I have several sets of used strings I can peel back the winds and measure the cores and give you some comparisons between gauges. I'm just not sure they are all from the same manufacturer but I'll check.

[DeepEnd]

. . . Tension goes down when you tune down. Having larger core strings brings that tension back up to normal. That's why I posted strings specifically designed for under tuning. The stiffness and intonation should be about the same as normal strings tuned to concert pitch. . . .

Sorry but no. Intonation is based on the diameter of the core so a larger core would need more compensation. That's why the lower strings need more compensation, because they have larger cores.

[WRGKMC]

Sorry but no. Intonation is based on the diameter of the core so a larger core would need more compensation. That's why the lower strings need more compensation, because they have larger cores.

 

I give up.

 

You're tuning down in pitch which reduces tension not diameter.

 

With drop tuning string gauges you increase tension by increasing core diameter "not outside diameter".

 

This increases string tension back up to match strings tuned to concert pitch.

 

You can have the same total diameter strings for drop tuning or concert and the overall tension of both sets of strings are same when one sets tuned to pitch and the other set is low tuned. That's why they make the string for people who know thay get better results with strings designed got drop Tuning.

 

Am I being clear here or am I missing something others fail to interpret.

 

 

GHS Big Core Bass strings provide maximum playability and durability while featuring nickel iron alloy cover and core to cover ratios that have been optimized for bright tone. Our taper design on the 4th string maintains balance and consistent tone from G to E strings. It is this taper design that increases fundamental bass note accuracy, adds sustain and tone life and insures outstanding E string performance past the fifth fret. For those players who play in Drop D, C Standard and below, yet prefer the feel of strings with regular gauges, the larger core wire supplies note definition and focus while still maintaining excellent feel. When tuned to pitch these strings have slightly more tension than conventional strings, a crucial feature for the low B string in a 5 or 6 string set.

 

Its the same thing with Large core Guitar Strings

 

BIG CORE NICKEL ROCKERS™

• 
  

 

 

Overview

We start with a slightly bigger core wire, which helps improve tone and increase sustain and tone life. For those that detune / drop tune, the bigger core helps you keep equal tension as you tune down. The ½ size plain steel strings help to keep the set balanced. We finish with a high quality, pure nickel cover to give you a sweet, vintage, mid-bright tone with excellent volume.

 

And again from the D'Addario site.

 

String tension is determined by vibrating length, mass, and pitch. The string diameter alone does not determine a string’s tension. By using different raw materials (nickelplated steel or phosphor bronze, etc.) or by varying the ratio between the core and the wrap wire, two strings with the same diameter, tuned to the same pitch, could have two different tensions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DeepEnd]

I give up. . . .

 

. . . Am I being clear here or am I missing something others fail to interpret. . . .

It's just as well you're giving up because you're clearly missing something. My post said nothing about tension or about overall string diameter, only the size do the core. You specifically said:

. . . Having larger core strings brings that tension back up to normal. That's why I posted strings specifically designed for under tuning. The stiffness and intonation should be about the same as normal strings tuned to concert pitch. . . .

Which is wrong. The larger cores will affect intonation. Nothing you cited mentions intonation so you haven't proven anything, you've only obfuscated as usual, hoping nobody will notice.

[WRGKMC]

I posted in black and white for you from the manufacturer and you still don't understand.

 

If the tension of normal strings tuned to pitch is 200lbs and you low tune and reduce that tension by 25%

you can have problems with the instruments setup and string feel. Relief flattens out and you can wind up with string buzz. You can readjust the relief and intonation to fix the string buzz but it does nothing to fix the flabby string issue.

 

The larger cores add back that missing 25% tension when the strings are tuned to that lower pitch so you shouldn't have to touch the relief height or intonation very much and you have your correct string feel back.

 

You don't use these strings at concert pitch or you will indeed have over tension issues. They are for low tuning only.

 

If you don't understand what I'm talking about I do suggest you try the product before you start accusing me of being wrong about it. Large core guitar strings have only been around for a few years and low tuned bass strings have only been around maybe a year on the sites I buy from.

 

I put a set on my bass players backup bass back in December and other then having to tweak his truss 1/8 of a turn they worked exactly as advertised. I didn't even have to touch the intonation so your points about larger cores isn't even relative.

 

If you had larger cores tuned to concert pitch, then of course you'd have to compensate, but that's not even the topic. I'm talking about low tuning compensation here.

 

String manufacturers are allot better at designing their products then either you or I so you should give then the benefit of knowing what they are doing. They came out with this product for this one specific purpose. The fad lately is to for people to tune low so string manufacturers came out with a product for that purpose. I've tried it. It works. All I'm doing is explaining how the product works.

[DeepEnd]

You're the one who still doesn't understand. Nothing you posted had anything to do with what we're talking about. The issue where you're wrong is not string diameter or tension or relief. Look at the bridge on an electric guitar. It will look something like this (an L.R. Baggs piezo bridge in this instance, chosen because the saddles are easy to see):

Note that the offsets of the saddles don't correspond to the diameters of the strings but to the size of the cores in the case of the wound strings. The 6th string has a larger core so it needs more compensation than the 4th. Make the cores even larger and you need to move the saddles back. Plain strings are "all core," so to speak, and the 3rd requires more compensation than the 1st. Change gauges and a proper setup will mean changing the intonation as well. Change the size of the core without changing the overall gauge and you have the same situation. I strongly suspect that, when you put large core strings on your friend's bass, you played a couple of notes and said to yourself, "Yeah, that sounds about right," without using a tuner to measure whether the intonation was spot on. I use a good tuner and check the intonation (and correct it if necessary) whenever I change string gauges.

[WRGKMC]

????? Sir, The OP was talking about filing his nut to get larger bass strings to fit for lower tuning.

 

That is not necessary and It hasn't been for awhile now.

 

I suggested the OP was to use "large core" bass strings of the "Same Gauge" as he has now designed for "lower tuning" so he doesn't have to mess with "any" of that.

 

I suggest you read that sentence a second time because you have yet to acknowledge you comprehend what I'm talking about here.

 

Everything you've posted above applies to larger diameter strings with normal cores I'm not disputing your logic is that was case, but to me its obvious you don't have a clue about the product I'm talking. I don't blame you for that either, The product is relatively new and I don't even know if you can find them in most music stores so you have to buy them on line.

 

The OP may need to do a "little" tweaking the same way as you do with any new set of strings, but major adjustments to anything should be unnecessary. I confirmed this myself and if you haven't, then it explains why you don't understand. They aren't normal strings. The whole reason manufacturers developed these low tuned strings was you DONT have to do any of that stuff.

 

You simply put them on, low tune and play the instrument and play. Plug and play, that's it. Unless you are switching gauges from say 45~100 to 50~120 or switching from very different string materials of different hardness then there's nothing else you need to do.

 

Now if you have an argument about the product, take it up with the manufacture, not me. The reason I advise others to try it because it works. If you play with your fingers you don't have to sacrifice slow string response with under tuned strings any more.

 

The main thing is The OP doesn't have to recut his nut or put bassball bats on there. He can use the same gauge as he's using now and just tune low. They are not designed for concert pitch. You try and tune them up to concert pitch and you'll have all kinds of problems with relief and intonation and you would have to lengthen the saddles a lot to compensate.

 

Believe me I used them on my buddies bass and they worked as advertised. He's into playing heavy metal stuff so I bought him a set for Christmas. It sounded way better then just tuning normal strings down. He was getting mud tones and tuning issues prior to that. He didn't hear it but I did. After putting them on he surely understood what I was talking about because the low tones had a snap to them like normal strings so tuned to pitch.

 

If you don't believe me, then you will have to try a set for yourself. I've done all I can to enlighten you to the facts, but some people don't understand those facts without first hand experience.

[DeepEnd]

"Oversize core" means a larger core than standard. I suggest you read that sentence a second time because you have yet to acknowledge that you comprehend what I'm talking about here. Everything I've posted applies to any string regardless of the size of the core or the overall diameter. You can't dispute my logic because there's nothing to dispute. First you said "The stiffness and intonation should be about the same" but now you say "The OP may need to do a "little" tweaking". The issue here is basic physics, which no degree of string redesign can change. I have yet to see anything from any string manufacturer that says "you DONT [sic] have to do any of that stuff." I don't have an argument about the product. I think it's an excellent idea based on a very real need.

[WRGKMC]

I don't care what your opinions are and I have no interest in discussing physics with you. Get it? You haven't used the product so there's no point in discussing it with you.

[DeepEnd]

Sure, I get it. I won't accept that you're a genius so you're going to take your toys and go home.

[DeepEnd]

An Amazon.com review you might find interesting (emphasis added) http://www.amazon.com/Dunlop-DBHCN45105-Heavy-Strings-045-105/dp/B00CN082V4):

I tune in B or C, and wanted to try a thicker set of strings to help restore tension and reduce fret slap/rattle. . . . I have the 120 "Heavier" 4 string set on a Squier P bass, and Warwick corvette rock bass. The extra tension provided by the heavier strings did help the instrument play more like it should, but will require a set up. The only down side I've found having these for about a year now- it took some effort to get the low string intonation right, the saddle has to move back a lot. . . . I've had a set of these on the Warwick for about a year, and they're still in great shape. The only reason i rated these 4 stars instead of 5 is the fact that intonation might be difficult on some basses, might require a little bit of work, its just due to the size of the string, so that's not really a knock against the product, just physics.

Oh, but of course you don't want to discuss physics so just pretend the review doesn't mention it.

[WRGKMC]

Hey, lets not get personal here. I have no problem with a healthy argument based on facts and firm beliefs, but what you're doing is wrong.

 

Your quote specifically says "I have the 120 "Heavier" 4 string set on a Squire P bass, and Warwick corvette rock bass".

 

This automatically makes that quote irrelative.

 

He's talking about Larger Diameter, "NORMAL CORE" strings "NOT" Oversized core - Reduced wrap sized strings. I'm "not" and have not been discussing normal strings with you. Everything you've argued is about normal strings. You're shadow boxing yourself working up an argument that doesn't exist.

 

Why cant you understand we're talking about two different products??? Am I failing to explain it in words you understand or are you disputing the product exists?

 

For some reason you are fixated on thinking larger core means larger diameter and because you think they are larger diameter, they need additional compensation.

 

This is a misunderstanding on your part, not mine.

 

If you're intension is to discuss normal string compensation, fine. I'm not on that topic but if you want me to switch over I'm fine with that. Just realize that up till now all your arguments have "all" been about "normal strings"

 

Mine have been about a specific product that has built in compensation. OF COURSE you have to adjust intonation with normal large diameter strings. My point is, you "DONT" have to buy "larger diameter" normal core strings to low tune. You can use the "Same Gauge" with "Smaller Wraps & Larger Cores".

 

Large core string come in several gauges (gauge = outside diameter) They are designed for low tuning "only" and should "not" be tuned to normal pitch. If you stick with the same gauged strings you use for normal tuning, you don't have to readjust anything. The engineers who designed these baritone type, large core, bass strings did that compensation for you when they designed the strings!!!!!!!

 

This is a different product engineered to eliminate that additional compensation. Do you dispute what the manufacturer claims? Do you disagree with me because I agree with the manufacturer?

 

These aren't larger diameter strings that have a normal increases in core sizes as you go up in gauge. These are "larger then normal" core strings that with "reduced" wrap sizes.

 

From everything I'm reading in your posts that's where you're dragging things off topic and attempting to create an argument. I have no argument with you.

 

Yes, These strings would need allot of compensation "if" they were tuned to concert pitch but "They aren't designed for tuning to concert pitch".

 

They are designed for lower slacked tuning only. That's why the cores are larger. They add the tension back that's lost when you tune down.....

 

Again, if you want to argue normal strings, find someone else. I know all about normal strings and normal compensation.

 

These are "not" normal strings and the "compensation" you're arguing about is "Built into the Strings" by the manufacturer.

[DeepEnd]

What I'm doing is not wrong except insofar as it's making you look foolish. Let's try this one more time. The product under discussion is Dunlop Heavy Core Bass Strings.

Each Heavy Core Bass String set is optimized for a specific range of tunings: Heavy for Drop D and D Standard; Heavier for Drop C and C Standard; and Heaviest for Drop B and B Standard.

The review I posted refers to the "Heavier" version, 55, 75, 95, 115, (although he refers to them as having a 120 4th string for some reason, which would be more consistent with the "Heaviest" set, 55, 75, 100, 120) which still has heavy cores. He is not talking about large diameter normal core strings. You're the one who is shadow boxing, for reasons I don't understand unless your pride simply won't let you see. Compensation depends on the size of the core, not the overall size of the string. That's why the D string on an electric guitar has roughly the same compensation as the high E. The misunderstanding is on your part. All my arguments have been about strings. Period. Strings behave in a particular way, governed by basic physics but you don't want me to talk about that so I won't. But I don't see how any amount of engineering will eliminate the need to compensate for the larger cores. You still haven't shown me anything that suggests the manufacturer asserts that additional compensation isn't needed. No, these are not normal strings and they don't require normal compensation, which is what you're saying.

[WRGKMC]

I haven't used the Dunlop's, just the GHS. Dunlop is a Branded string manufacturer. I tried their guitar strings once and never bought them again. I couldn't get them set up on my guitar properly. GHS is an actual manufacturer and they are one of the best at designing consistent quality strings that a properly gauged for tension and balance.

 

After looking into their product, it appears Dunlop make different sets for different tunings. The set that guy reviewed, DBHCN45105 are specifically designed for D tuning, but as you say he talks about the Heaviest: 55, 75, 100, 120 which are designed for Drop B tuning.

 

The question is did he actually use the Drop B strings to Drop B tune? There's no way of knowing if he made a mistake on reviewing the wrong gauge or weather he was trying to tune the lighter set below specs. There's also no way of knowing if his bass was set up for normal Dunlops prior to switching over so his review is questionable at best.

 

Their add recommends......

 

Heavy Core Bass Strings are for bass players who tune down and dig in. We craft these strings with thicker core wires for standard feel and tonal definition. With Heavy Core Bass Strings, you can play with your natural attack and retain big, punchy fundamentals when tuning below E-Standard. Each Heavy Core Bass String set is optimized for a specific range of tunings: Heavy for Drop D and D Standard; Heavier for Drop C and C Standard; and Heaviest for Drop B and B Standard. Available sets and gauges: - Heavy: 45, 65, 85, 105 - Heavier: 55, 75, 95, 115 - Heaviest: 55, 75, 100, 120

 

 

In my case the bass player was using GHS Progressives before I switched him over to large core GHS and tuned him to C tuning.

 

I was the one who set his bass for the Normal Boomers the prior year so I "Know" the bass was properly set up before switching to the large cores. I been doing setups both professionally as when I worked for Kramer and personally for a long time now. I don't have to rely on other peoples reviews and I surely don't have to listen to your opinions on the topic. I set the instrument up for normal strings and I did the changeover to large cores it so I know first hand. After the changeover, I didn't have to make any intonation adjustments at all.

 

Now you can believe my results or not. As I said I could care less about your opinions because I "know" what the results were in my case. You can throw up all the examples you want and I will still have to disagree with it because my results tell me otherwise.

 

If you tested something and got specific results, Wouldn't you stick with your own first hand experience over someone else's opinions? Do you really think you're going to change my opinion here when I already have all the facts I need?

 

If I had bought him a different "brand" of strings, I may very well have had to tweak them as I would switching brands with even normal strings. Different manufacturers use different materials and often base their gauging on their own unique formulas. Look up the Tensions of the same gauges of strings by different manufacturers and its pure proof each use different formulas. Some manufacturers like DR use smaller cores to get a slinky flexible feel. Others like Thomastik-Infeld use thicker cores for low flex.

 

GHS is one of the few manufacturers who actually list many of their tensions so you can confirm just how much tension each string in a set produces. D'Addario is very good on bass string gauging too. (Better then their guitar strings in my opinion)

 

Switching from GHS to D'Addario using the "same gauge" strings does require tweaking for optimum action and tone. Unless you have some proof the person in that review used normal Dunlop before going heavy core, then how do you know if the intonation issues were caused by gauging and not material. How do you know his bass was properly setup prior to switching over. Maybe he used a heavier or lighter gauge of normal strings before switching and would have had to tweak his intonation or relief the same way as he would changing normal gauges.

 

You see there's no way of knowing in your example because none of those facts are listed. He may have had issues with that bass just switching from 100's to 120's. That's why you cant trust half of what people tell you, so again, I suggest "You" try the product and give a first hand account before you start bashing others who have.

 

As I see it you don't have that first hand experience I do so why shouldn't I ignore you. As you said, I will now pack up my toys and leave because there is nothing more to say to you. When you've tried as set then I'll be happy to debate you on your results. Until then, I have nothing left to say to you on this topic. Its all been said and nothing you say is going to change my opinion on my results. maybe yours will be different and we can debate that.