Members W. M. Hellinger Posted May 16, 2012 Members Share Posted May 16, 2012 And being that checking it under load would entail the sound system going full blast, how do you do a voltage check if you don't have the time or luxury of a full volume sound check? I use 500 watt par cans to load Edison outlet (5-15R or 5-20R) equipped circuits for testing under load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted May 16, 2012 Members Share Posted May 16, 2012 Everything I have *read online points to a brownout*. I'd like to read *that*. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted May 16, 2012 Members Share Posted May 16, 2012 Yes, I am curious. My guess is that it didn't have enough juice to power the beer trailer and the stage simultaneously. When the beer coolers kicked in, the power dropped - causing a brownout condition. Everything I have read online points to a brownout. Apparently the Class D amps react diffferent to brownouts than Class A/B amps do. Even if it was a Crown Class D it probably would have been damaged in a similar manner. That's a wild assed guess based on poor and inaccurate information. I will say for a fact that the class D amps that I design into my products protect themselves from very low voltage. All QUALITY class D products do, including the Crown products that am familiar with. Instead of guessing, and pontificating bad info, why not ask the manufacturer of your amps. It's either a yes or no answer and we will know what catagory your amps fall into with the answer you get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members VanHalen Posted May 17, 2012 Author Members Share Posted May 17, 2012 Instead of guessing, and pontificating bad info, why not ask the manufacturer of your amps. It's either a yes or no answer and we will know what catagory your amps fall into with the answer you get.Acme The brand and/or quality of the amp is not in question. The faulty power that blew my amps and the Crown amps the next day is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JohnnyGraphic Posted May 17, 2012 Members Share Posted May 17, 2012 Well, I'm glad things turned out for you. Hopefully you won't ever have to have this problem again. Also, and more importantly, I know that I myself and others have gained tons of useful information and insight on this forum. Contributors like Aged & WMH and the like, too many to name really, give excellent, informed, accurate and EXPERIENCED information. Really, hats off to this community and the information here. Thank you. Johnny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fdew Posted May 17, 2012 Members Share Posted May 17, 2012 There is a thread going at http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,137760.10.html with a lot of discussion and info about how bad wiring can look OK and cause trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Miko Man Posted May 17, 2012 Members Share Posted May 17, 2012 There is a thread going at http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,137760.10.htmlwith a lot of discussion and info about how bad wiring can look OK and cause trouble. Thank you for posting that link. I have a non-contact tester on my stage tool belt, but I'll add one to my mixer case too. Mark C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members srp72ee Posted May 17, 2012 Members Share Posted May 17, 2012 The brand and/or quality of the amp is not in question. The faulty power that blew my amps and the Crown amps the next day is. Ok... Now that you have the money for new amps. What are you planning on purchasing? Just curious... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted May 17, 2012 Members Share Posted May 17, 2012 The brand and/or quality of the amp is not in question. The faulty power that blew my amps and the Crown amps the next day is. Sure it does... a quality amp will include at least the very basic protections against (what you speculate was) low voltage. My amps are completely protected against low voltage, or a severe voltage sag. They will go into protect mode and then recover automatically when power is restored. The Crown amps use a non-automatic form of protection, the fuses opened to protect against the fault. What did your amps do when presented with this fault? Oh yeah, they blew up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gspointer Posted May 17, 2012 Members Share Posted May 17, 2012 I am still curious about how the value of 1500 bucks was determined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members srp72ee Posted May 17, 2012 Members Share Posted May 17, 2012 I am still curious about how the value of 1500 bucks was determined. One may never know... I would never write a check unless I has a receipt from the purchase of new amps - but that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gspointer Posted May 17, 2012 Members Share Posted May 17, 2012 One may never know... I would never write a check unless I has a receipt from the purchase of new amps - but that's just me. I would expect a depreciated value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lonotes Posted May 17, 2012 Members Share Posted May 17, 2012 I am still curious about how the value of 1500 bucks was determined. That was what it was worth to say "Go away, you're bothering me". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Randyman Posted May 17, 2012 Members Share Posted May 17, 2012 From fdew: There is a thread going at http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index....137760.10.html with a lot of discussion and info about how bad wiring can look OK and cause trouble. @ fdew: Thanks for the heads up! There's a lot of great info in this forum thread. I copied one of the posts below. From ProSoundWeb post by Mike Sokol: Guys... this is not a freak accident. It was caused by something I call a Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground (or RPBG). This occurs when an old building has new grounded outlets added by bonding the ground screw to the neutral screw because there was no separate ground wire to begin with. That by itself is electrically safe, but many older buildings had black power wires for both the hot and neutral, and some were simply wired backwards with the white/neutral wire being hot and the black/power line being actual neutral. See the attached diagram. In that case any piece of gear plugged into a Reverse Polarity Bootleg Grounded outlet will have its chassis energized to 120 volts. If you then connect that piece of audio gear to something else that's plugged into a correctly wired outlet, you can have 20 amps or more of current flow down the shield, which melts wires and destroys gear. The really scary thing is that a 3-light tester will tell you that this reversed outlet is wired correctly, when in fact both the neutral and ground contacts are at 120 volts and the hot side is at earth potential. Please see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pwCY4_LwJo&feature=youtu.be&noredirect=1 for a video I did a few weeks ago that describes how you can use a $20 non-contact AC tester in conjunction with a cheap 3-light tester to qualify grounds in power plugs. That's the only easy way to determine if an outlet will blow up your gear. After discussing this testing issue with a few meter manufacturers, it seems that the entire industry has missed this problem. In fact, electrical inspectors routinely use a 3-light tester to qualify outlets in renovated buildings, but that's where the hot and neutral wires in the wall are most likely to be reversed. I'm covering a lot of this on www.noshockzone.org and trying to get Lowes and Home Depot to offer training to consumers and electricians on how to check for this condition. Please contact me with any questions or comments. Mike Sokol - mike@fitsandstarts.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members srp72ee Posted May 18, 2012 Members Share Posted May 18, 2012 Lowes and Home Depot should not be training electricians. Lowes and Home Depot should not be training consumers in electrical matters at this level. The hot neutral/ground issue has been known for over 20 years on the plug in testers. Giving Joe Q. Consumer a bit more electrical knowledge to determine a problem that he really doesn't understand in the first place is dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted May 18, 2012 Members Share Posted May 18, 2012 One may never know... I would never write a check unless I has a receipt from the purchase of new amps - but that's just me. Personally, I'd ask to see the county property tax declaration and depreciation schedule from the plaintiff's IRS Schedule C (form 1040) with attached form 4560 concerning said equipment (assuming those supporting documents weren't preemptively offered as standard proceedure... and assuming, of-course, that pay had been recieved by the plaintiff for services rendered). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BillESC Posted May 18, 2012 Members Share Posted May 18, 2012 You either do or do not understand electricity. There is no middle ground and certainly no guessing. The fact that I'm typing right know attests to the fact that I have the understanding. On topic, for a Donna Summer's concert at Roseland Dance City in NYC back in 1977, I had to tie into a ConEd city main for the block. Have you ever seen a copper 2 x 4 carrying 2000 amps? I have and tied in live. Granted, things were different back then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members srp72ee Posted May 18, 2012 Members Share Posted May 18, 2012 You either do or do not understand electricity. There is no middle ground and certainly no guessing. The fact that I'm typing right know attests to the fact that I have the understanding. On topic, for a Donna Summer's concert at Roseland Dance City in NYC back in 1977, I had to tie into a ConEd city main for the block. Have you ever seen a copper 2 x 4 carrying 2000 amps? I have and tied in live. Granted, things were different back then. I'm sure you were wearing arc flash protection back in 1977! I should send you a few pictures of my project for the last 18 months... A power supply to power electric motors 0-13,800 Volts AC or 0-1000 Volts DC @ 2100 KVA. I had a dedicated 480V, 2500 Amp service installed to power the unit. I can power a 2250 HP at full load on our dynamometer, or power a 18,000 HP motor unloaded. Safety of my friends is top priority, no exceptions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members IsildursBane Posted May 18, 2012 Members Share Posted May 18, 2012 You either do or do not understand electricity. There is no middle ground and certainly no guessing. The fact that I'm typing right know attests to the fact that I have the understanding. On topic, for a Donna Summer's concert at Roseland Dance City in NYC back in 1977, I had to tie into a ConEd city main for the block. Have you ever seen a copper 2 x 4 carrying 2000 amps? I have and tied in live. Granted, things were different back then. I imagine electricity to be something like heights: once you get past a certain point, it doesn't matte how impressive the numbers are, you're still dead.Speaking of Donna, RIP. She's a not-too-distant relative and hers is not the first death in that immediate family in recent weeks. -Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Randyman Posted May 18, 2012 Members Share Posted May 18, 2012 Whatever Mike Sokol's plans for distributing this info to lowly consumers, I appreciate that he came to a live sound forum and gave instructions and tools to use for testing for known problems with power in live situations. A lot of under-informed guys run their own sound in countless dodgy bars, and getting this info out is a lot better than flying blind like the OP did. It would be good to know how common what he talks about is compared to other problematic power scenarios. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted May 19, 2012 Members Share Posted May 19, 2012 How would you react to this turn of events if you were in my shoes? I believe I'd have a beverage and hope to wake up with some adult level inspiration in the morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted May 19, 2012 Members Share Posted May 19, 2012 I believe I'd have a beverage and hope to wake up with some adult level inspiration in the morning.Agreed.What happened to Mr. Halen's post... it was so inspiring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Consume Posted May 19, 2012 Members Share Posted May 19, 2012 I believe I'd have a beverage and hope to wake up with some adult level inspiration in the morning. Does anybody have any idea what kind of amplifiers he's getting, or did he run out and plop his money down on some more Behringers? I know if I had $1,500, I would definitely look around and do some serious research before I just ran out and plopped my money down. These days I would be more inclined to put it into powered cabinets....and I don't mean Behringer! LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gspointer Posted May 19, 2012 Members Share Posted May 19, 2012 Does anybody have any idea what kind of amplifiers he's getting, or did he run out and plop his money down on some more Behringers? I know if I had $1,500, I would definitely look around and do some serious research before I just ran out and plopped my money down. These days I would be more inclined to put it into powered cabinets....and I don't mean Behringer! LOL Don't know. But if he got 1500 bucks for 2 behringers I guess the gig paid pretty well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Zeromus-X Posted May 19, 2012 Members Share Posted May 19, 2012 Seriously. If they're that eager to write a check, maybe I should try to book some street festivals with some old, beat-up gear that I've got, and get it replaced free (or for a profit). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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