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Faulty power at event damages gear - who is to blame?


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2. Checking with a voltmeter that the voltage is close to 120.

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Just a note for anyone who thinks, "I can just place a meter at the end of a 120' of wire and if it measures 110 then I'm good..."

 

In order to know if you have proper power at the end of a long run of wire, it must be checked under load (i.e. max current draw). The voltage drop in the wiring is proporational to the current draw.

 

A good rule of thumb: if the wiring is getting warm to the touch, it is dissipating power and needs to be used cautiously (if at all). If you don't know what that means, do not use it.

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Is knowing its coming off a 120' power cord a red flag or only an orange flag?

 

Well... it certainly could be an orange flag (judged on the surface)... because:

 

1) Power cables rarely come off the shelf in 120ft. lengths.

2) 16ga. cables are more common (generally) in long lengths than 14ga. and especially 12ga.

 

It would be a red flag if some or any of the ground lugs are missing... or if they're twisted up like barber pole stripes.

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KF650SB1000 wrote:


Which means what exactly? UPS? Power conditioners? Voltage smart amps? Measuring before and ongoingly? Is knowing its coming off a 120' power cord a red flag or only an orange flag?

 

 

A Voltmeter! They come in many different shapes and styles.

 

UPS should be used if you have a digital mixer and this is to save the 3 minute boot-up when the breaker trips.

 

Power Conditioners like a Furman Merit series is just a fancy rack mount power trip. It's mainly a marketing gimmick; you can't fix "broken" power.

 

Voltage Smart amps?? Are you referring to the "world power supplies"? I don't think they have the technology to auto/switch mid show when gear is hooked up and you

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The power was obviously bad. The sound guy who had his amps blown up the following day said that he had owned one of his amps for 15 years and never had it blow up like that.

The event planner has basically given me the blowoff routine. He is trying to blame the City. The City is blaming the event planner. And now the band members want me to back off because I am getting the event planner pissed off.

This is a no-win deal. If I shut my mouth, I get screwed for the amps and horns. If I open my mouth and complain, I become the bad guy. Can't win for losing.

:idk:

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Great news! I just got a call from the drummer. After putting enough pressure on the event planner, he caved and wrote a check. I am amazed and happy!

He just went from being a zero to a hero in my book! I think I just lucked out on this one.

:lol:

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I thought the power of Van Halen was supposed to be enough to rock the earth so if it's anybody's fault, it Alex & Eddie Van Halens'.



I am their long lost third brother. I haven't heard from them since Van Halen III when I told them what I thought of it.

:idk:

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Great news! I just got a call from the drummer. After putting enough pressure on the event planner, he caved and wrote a check. I am amazed and happy!


He just went from being a zero to a hero in my book! I think I just lucked out on this one.


:lol:



Good news. :thu:

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Great news! I just got a call from the drummer. After putting enough pressure on the event planner, he caved and wrote a check. I am amazed and happy!


He just went from being a zero to a hero in my book! I think I just lucked out on this one.


:lol:

 

Great, but from now on be sure sure to verify how much power is being provided and if anybody is pulling off of it. Take the time to not only verify the source but the size of the conductors and the length to make sure you are getting adequate (read: at least 50% more than you will need in the most demanding situation). Showing up just expecting everything to be OK is a recipe for what you experienced. In those situations there should be a contracted electrician there. Check with them before plugging in.

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As the various replys suggest, you need to look at the cost/benefit analysis between "self-insuring" your gear and getting insurance to cover your gear from different types of risks. It may help to think of your deductible amount as the level at which you are willing to self-insure against the risk of loss. Mark C.

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If this area in the city is a typical spot to have festivals, maybe now is the time to suggest a "pro-active" idea and have a few dedicated receptacles installed in strategic locations to prevent future problems. Since the city appears to have an electrician, it could be an afternoon project for him.

 

I would prefer to use my distro if I was in this situation. My distro has neutral loss detection and opens up all the the circuits in the event that the neutral conductor has a high impedance or is lost. It also has GFCI protection on all of the circuits. When running power from nearby buildings for a outdoor event like this, most of those receptacles are not GFCI protected.

 

It also sounds like you can "up your price" for the next gig. If the promoter wrote you a check that quick - 1) He made his money. 2) He was at least satisfied with the quality sound. 3)The band's performance was acceptable. 4) May want a future booking.

 

PROFIT is not a dirty word!

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It also sounds like you can "up your price" for the next gig. If the promoter wrote you a check that quick - 1) He made his money. 2) He was at least satisfied with the quality sound. 3)The band's performance was acceptable. 4) May want a future booking.


PROFIT is not a dirty word!

 

Get insurance, and let him know that your price is raised because of it, and if anything happened at the next gig, you might only need your deductable covered...

 

:thu:

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Great news! I just got a call from the drummer. After putting enough pressure on the event planner, he caved and wrote a check. I am amazed and happy!


He just went from being a zero to a hero in my book! I think I just lucked out on this one.


:lol:




And now the band can say

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There's a street dance this labour day that someone inquired about. Outside, etc. they asked if I was interested in volunteering to help, as in provide sound, but I politely declined. I mentioned that the town has some gear and I think they can rent it fairly cheaply. So hopefully they look into that, and it all works out for them

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This thread makes me nervous regarding how much I don't know about something as basic as getting safe power and what to look for and what precautions to take. The OP also hasn't stated what the cause of the problem was. Any thoughts on what would fry his amp and blow the fuses on the other amp?

Mutha Goose wrote:

Just a note for anyone who thinks, "I can just place a meter at the end of a 120' of wire and if it measures 110 then I'm good..."


In order to know if you have proper power at the end of a long run of wire, it must be checked under load (i.e. max current draw). The voltage drop in the wiring is proportional to the current draw.


A good rule of thumb: if the wiring is getting warm to the touch, it is dissipating power and needs to be used cautiously (if at all). If you don't know what that means, do not use it.



And being that checking it under load would entail the sound system going full blast, how do you do a voltage check if you don't have the time or luxury of a full volume sound check?

Possible solution: Having a warning system measuring at all times, giving the alert when it's unsafe power? (Does that exist?)

Being that in this case he got the power from the city electricians, wouldn't they have known about potential problems, esp. being that some kind of power screw-up happened two days in a row and affected amps both times.

KF650SB1000 wrote:

UPS should be used if you have a digital mixer and this is to save the 3 minute boot-up when the breaker trips.



I'm used to UPS devices for keyboards, some of which also can have a long startup time. But IIRC, you're getting really clean power from an UPS, which was the point of asking about it as a solution. Are there power conditioning systems out there that take the raw voltage in and make it "clean"? I guess the relevant question would be, are there systems like that that are affordable for the full bands power-?

srp72ee wrote:

I would prefer to use my distro if I was in this situation. My distro has neutral loss detection and opens up all the the circuits in the event that the neutral conductor has a high impedance or is lost. It also has GFCI protection on all of the circuits. When running power from nearby buildings for a outdoor event like this, most of those receptacles are not GFCI protected.


I use a CEP (Construction Electrical Products) model 8706GU.





Spendy but worth it. I suppose if you're doing these kinds of festivals on an ongoing basis, having thick guage extension cords would be helpful as well

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I'm used to UPS devices for keyboards, some of which also can have a long startup time. But IIRC, you're getting really clean power from an UPS, which was the point of asking about it as a solution. Are there power conditioning systems out there that take the raw voltage in and make it "clean"? I guess the relevant question would be, are there systems like that that are affordable for the full bands power-?


 

 

Most "Consumer Grade" UPS's pass the incoming line voltage straight through to the outlets. Many have an "AVR" feature that will boost or cut the incoming voltage depending on the level. Only when the voltage level is outside the AVR range does the UPS switch on and provide power from the internal battery. A consumer grade UPS will not "clean up" power.

 

There are some ways to improve power quality, but none are cheap or light.

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Being that in this case he got the power from the city electricians, wouldn't they have known about potential problems, esp. being that some kind of power screw-up happened two days in a row and affected amps both times.

 

 

This is the same as going to a lawyer, accountant or banker. Before you go you better know what questions to ask if you want reliable answers.

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As the various replys suggest, you need to look at the cost/benefit analysis between "self-insuring" your gear and getting insurance to cover your gear from different types of risks. It may help to think of your deductible amount as the level at which you are willing to self-insure against the risk of loss. Mark C.



The event planner didn't want to turn it into his insurance for the same reason you or I wouldn't want to - they always increase the premium when you make a claim. Not to mention the $500 deductible and all the red tape.

:idk:

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Update: The City's electrical department is now doing work on the power supply at that location and they have admitted that the power was faulty. They are apparently going to reimburse the event planner for buying my new amps.

:thu:

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VanHalen wrote:

 

Update: The City's electrical department is now doing work on the power supply at that location and they have admitted that the power was faulty.

 

 

Faulty in what way? Aren't you curious?

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Faulty in what way? Aren't you curious?

 

 

Yes, I am curious. My guess is that it didn't have enough juice to power the beer trailer and the stage simultaneously. When the beer coolers kicked in, the power dropped - causing a brownout condition. Everything I have read online points to a brownout. Apparently the Class D amps react diffferent to brownouts than Class A/B amps do. Even if it was a Crown Class D it probably would have been damaged in a similar manner.

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