12 String Problem?

[kr236rk]

Hi,

 

Have a Yamaha FG-410-12A second hand twelve string. I love this thing but it sure is tough to play, I have to put on a wrist support on my chording hand every time I pick it up! Is it that the strings are too heavy, could I try an extra light gauge?

 

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/userp...DSCN2162_2.jpg

 

Thanks

[DeepEnd]

I don't know how much you know about acoustic guitars so excuse me if I insult your intelligence at some point. Start by realizing that your Yamaha is well over 20 years old: http://www.guitar-list.com/yamaha/ac...amaha-fg410-12. It may be over 25. Over time, the pull of the strings tends to--well--fold the guitar in half. Imagine the whole guitar folding along the neck joint. As it folds, the action--the height of the strings--rises. This is worse on a 12-string because there's more string tension. 12-strings are normally either tuned down to D or strung with extra light strings. The cure for this "folding" is called a "neck reset." It's not cheap and it's difficult to do on Yamahas because of the epoxy they use to put their guitars together.

I'm making a semi-educated guess at this point. More pictures showing the height of the strings, how much saddle you have sticking out of the bridge, etc. would help. Typically, the action of an acoustic guitar should be around 3/32" at the 12th fret for the low E and 2/32" for the high E. Personally, I like mine a bit higher. You may be able to lower the saddle some to compensate for some of the string height but you need to have some saddle exposed in order to maintain "break angle" over the saddle. Lighter strings and/or downtuning might help too, depending on how you have it tuned now and what strings are on it. Most manufacturers make 10-47 sets for 12-string, which is fairly light. A few companies like Dean Markley, Ernie Ball, and GHS, make 9-46 or even 9-42 sets.

If you go to substantially lighter strings or significantly lower tuning, you'll also need to adjust the relief but we'll deal with that later. Take a few measurements and some more photos and post back.

[kr236rk]

Thanks DeepEnd,

 

Here are some pictures. I used to have a measure for action depths but I moved home a while ago and it will probably take forever to find stuff like that, in boxes under boxes in the garage. Anyway, the ruler I have used has a ferrule of some 6/32nds from where the numbering stops and the end of the ruler, so I hope that's a rough guide?

 

http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/...psmnh1ayr3.jpg

sound hole treble side

 

http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/...ps4v59uunm.jpg

ditto

 

http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/...psqyy2erc6.jpg

bass strings at nut

 

http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/...psxudmmyui.jpg

fret 12 bass side

 

http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/...psiirmgybo.jpg

bass strings at bridge

 

http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/...pspn5lazp9.jpg

bass strings at sound hole (neck)

 

http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/...pswnyafo8q.jpg

ditto

[kr236rk]

Here's the treble side action at fret 12

 

http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/...psiptto5gr.jpg

 

It doesn't look great but it doesn't look that bad either - have an awful feeling there is a jumbo size gauge on this box - better lighten up with some of those string sets you mentioned? It's about time the Yam had some new strings on it.

 

What should I go for - 08s or 09s please?

 

Update: just found a set of D'Addario 09-45s in the back room, no harm then in putting these on. Also found a used box of RotoSound 11-52s which is what I suspect are on the 12, but it's been such a long time since I re-stringed her, difficult (for me) to tell.

[garthman]

Yes, light strings are the way to go. I use 10 gauge nickel-steel (electric guitar) strings on my acoustic 12er. Works fine - sounds fine too.

[FretFiend.]

The pix don't really tell the whole story, but it doesn't look like there's anything terribly bad about the neck angle of that guitar. A good setup by a decent tech should help it a lot.

 

As has already been said, have it set up with the lightest strings you can get. Tune it down to D. And realize that it's a twelve string. That's twice as many strings as a sixer. By their very nature, they're tough to play.

[kr236rk]

Good advice guys - thanks! I'm going to put the 9's on to finish a song I'm in the middle of working out. Then I'll take the Yam over to a good music shop I know to see if there's any tweaking they can do for the action. Love the sound of a 12 but not the sore fingers that go with it at the moment!

[DeepEnd]

. . . What should I go for - 08s or 09s please?

 

Update: just found a set of D'Addario 09-45s in the back room, no harm then in putting these on. Also found a used box of RotoSound 11-52s which is what I suspect are on the 12, but it's been such a long time since I re-stringed her, difficult (for me) to tell.

Unfortunately, I'm at work and I can't see any of your subsequent pics but I'll depend on FretFiend's assessment that there's nothing terribly wrong. If those d'Addario 9-45's are acoustic strings, you should be in business. garthman's opinion to the contrary, electric strings aren't made for acoustic guitars and you won't get the best sound out of them. In any event, they're old because AFAIK d'Addario currently doesn't make a 9-45 set for 12-string. Downtuning 9's will yield poor sound anyway because there won't be enough tension to drive the top. I have a set of Dean Markley 9-46's on my old 12-string and when I initially tuned it to D it sounded awful. If you go to 10's you can try tuning to D. A 12-string is a balancing act: too little tension and you get poor sound, too much tension and you get poor playability and long-term structural issues.

You may also need to have the nut slots cut deeper, especially if you're having issues near the nut. Put a set of strings on it and take it in for a setup. It will be money well spent.

[kr236rk]

Thanks DeepEnd, I'll put the bronze D'Addario 9's on tomorrow but tune up to E, was going to tune down to D but scratch that. When I finish that song I will take the newly strung Yam over to the local music shop, they are luthiers so will know what to do, if anything is needed to be done. I will mention the nut recut.

 

Bought that Yam second-hand in 1990 with my first wages - that shop has now folded sadly - those guys were also luthiers and they corrected a string buzz on the Yam which has never reappeared.

 

Thanks again - glad I posted here!

[Idunno]

Seems to me a string is a string regardless of the guitar it's used on. A string of a particular gauge and alloy doesn't care what it's used on as long as the iron content satisfies the requirements of a magnetic pick-up, which is used in both guitars (assuming a mag sound hole pup). Further, same applies to complete sets. A set of 9s on an acoustic may/may not drive the top to the player's satisfaction but in the presence of a mag pup it doesn't matter. The lowest I've gone is a set of 10s and they perform with no remarkable degradation in unplugged sound. That's what I'm using now on a 6-string.

 

I will say that if a guitar is set up for 12s the neck may need adjustment if going down as low as 9s. I went from 13s to 10s over a series of steps/time (12s then 11s) and had to tweak the tension of the TR a bit once it settled into 10s. I let it buzz for a couple months - aggravating - because I wanted to be sure the neck had settled before adjusting it. I just got it adjusted, as a matter of fact.

 

I always had 9s on the Guild F-412 I had. I got to a point where I bought the strings individually to create a hybrid "set". Remembering now, I switched the positions of the G courses because I finger pick and getting the octave to ring out was near impossible for me until I did that. I had to fill and re-cut the nut slots.

 

Edit: To counter-point this post I will discuss something wholly off-topic in my next.

[Freeman Keller]

First, the picture of the bass strings at 12 looks like the action is about 3/16 (0.185). I like to run all of my guitars, including my 12's at about 0.100. I didn't look at the nut, relief or any of the other setup things but you guitar can use a good setup.

 

Second, strung with 0.010 to 0.042 and tuned to E the tension is around 240-250 pounds, about 150 percent of a sixer (not double as some people think). Sorry, that's just the nature of a 12 string. Lighter strings may help, most people prefer to down tune one or two semitones (and capo if they have to play at concert).

 

Third, nut action and relief can be critical in setting up a 12 string. Most folks only play them in the first positions - have you tech try to optimize that area.

 

Lastly, my experience with older Yamaha 12's (I owned an FG-230 before I got my Martin 12) is that they frequently do need a neck reset. You still have quite a bit of saddle sticking out - you might be able to get the action you want but it may be marginal.

[DeepEnd]

. . . you guitar can use a good setup.

 

Second, strung with 0.010 to 0.042 and tuned to E the tension is around 240-250 pounds, about 150 percent of a sixer (not double as some people think). . . .

Thanks for chiming in. I do feel obliged to mention that the OP and I were talking about a set of .009-.0045 at concert pitch, not .010's. Two .009's tuned to E would yield a total of 26.2 lbs. vs. 27.4 for a single .013, which is considered "medium gauge" by most manufacturers. Granted, you'd still have 20% or so more tension than with a 6-string but not as bad as an extra 50%.

[Freeman Keller]

Thanks for chiming in. I do feel obliged to mention that the OP and I were talking about a set of .009-.0045 at concert pitch, not .010's. Two .009's tuned to E would yield a total of 26.2 lbs. vs. 27.4 for a single .013, which is considered "medium gauge" by most manufacturers. Granted, you'd still have 20% or so more tension than with a 6-string but not as bad as an extra 50%.

 

I know that and in my limited experience 9's are really pushing the light side for a fairly heavily braced 12 like an old Yamie. Try them and see, but, again, without seeing the guitar and going only from the pictures the action is much higher than I like to set a 12 and I want to remind the OP that a 12 string is simply a different instrument and will never feel like a sixer.

 

When I get home (tonight) I'll post a link to a bunch of string tensions for various 12 string sets at different tunings - that might be very helpful.

[kr236rk]

Thanks to all - am re-stringing the Yam now. Will update.

[Phil O'Keefe]

I agree with the general consensus - the guitar, from what I can see in the pictures, doesn't look like it's in terrible condition, but the action's higher than I'd like to see, and that will definitely make playing it much more difficult than it needs to be. Restringing with a lighter gauge set of strings, and then having a good setup done by a qualified tech will make a world of difference. You'll (or the tech) will almost certainly need to adjust the guitar's truss rod at the minimum...

 

 

[kr236rk]

Thanks, I'd forgotten just how venerable this old Yam is - it's high time she had a check over anyway

 

Strung up & left the strings to stretch out a couple of hours, then tuned up. The guitar sounds lighter (tone) but so much easier to chord! The guitar sort of says not to strum it as loudly as I used to, get used to the new feel. So far so very good. Then I snagged a finger doing something else afterwards, so no more chording tonight on any guitar! Those must have been 11's on the Yam, no wonder I could hardly play it any more, I don't have 11 sets on my 6 string acoustics! Unbelievable luck to have that old set of 9's in the back room, I don't even remember buying them - must have been years ago?

 

If the music shop guys can improve on what I now have I will be in 12 string (stairway to?) heaven, but that won't be for a few weeks - but it will be ringed round on the calendar!

 

Many thanks!

 

[DeepEnd]

I know that and in my limited experience 9's are really pushing the light side for a fairly heavily braced 12 like an old Yamie. Try them and see' date=' . . . and I want to remind the OP that a 12 string is simply a different instrument and will never feel like a sixer. . . .[/quote']

Yes, as I mentioned, 9's tuned down to D are too flabby and weak. I was referring to 9's at concert pitch. You were referring to 10's tuned to D. The result should be similar. Sorry if I got off on the wrong track. A single 9 tuned to E actually has slightly more tension than a single 10 tuned to D. I think they'll probably work fine and if not the OP isn't out much. I'll even pay for a new set of strings if I've steered him wrong.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Thanks' date=' I'd forgotten just how venerable this old Yam is - it's high time she had a check over anyway [img']http://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/core/images/smilies/wink.png[/img]

 

Strung up & left the strings to stretch out a couple of hours, then tuned up. The guitar sounds lighter (tone) but so much easier to chord! The guitar sort of says not to strum it as loudly as I used to, get used to the new feel. So far so very good. Then I snagged a finger doing something else afterwards, so no more chording tonight on any guitar! Those must have been 11's on the Yam, no wonder I could hardly play it any more, I don't have 11 sets on my 6 string acoustics! Unbelievable luck to have that old set of 9's in the back room, I don't even remember buying them - must have been years ago?

 

If the music shop guys can improve on what I now have I will be in 12 string (stairway to?) heaven, but that won't be for a few weeks - but it will be ringed round on the calendar!

 

Many thanks!

 

Very cool! Please do me a favor, and after you have the tech set it up for you, post some "after" pictures for comparison!

[kr236rk]

Will do!

[Freeman Keller]

OK, back home with a real computer and all my favorites. This is from the UMGF FAQ

 

http://theunofficialmartinguitarforu...n#.VX92e8_bK1s

 

There is some really good information in the six string section, but since we are talking about twelves go to the bottom. Most people consider "lights" for a 12 to be 0.010 to 0.046 or 7 but nomenclature varies - be sure to check the actual gauge of the strings in the package. "Extra Lights" are 0.009 to 43 or 45. Noticed a couple of things

 

- the octave G string is smaller than the E's - usuallyt 0.009 for lights, 0.008 or 7 for extra lights. That is the string that you break most often.

 

- note that a set of 10's tuned down one semi tone are about 230 pounds total, approximately the same as 9's at concert. Down two steps they are even less and remember by throwing a capo on you are back to E (but you haven't changed the tension)

 

- not shown are so called Silk and Steel strings. Some 12 string players like them - frankly I think they sound wimpy but you should buy a set and try for yourself. You can also change the sound of a twelve by going from 80/20's (bright) to PB's (warm and mellow). Coated strings mean you don't have to change them as often

 

- compare the 210 to 250 pounds for a twelve string with 166 to 190 for a sixer. They are different animals, don't expect them to feel or play the same

 

- most of us who play 12 string guitars do tune them down. Two of mine are always in D (and then tuned to some open thing), one of them is specially set up to be tuned to C (it has really heavy strings on it). Players like Huddie Leadbetter (Leadbelly), Leo Kottke, Chris Proctor, Pete Seeger, Art Sulgar, Paul Geremia, Freeman Keller all tune down - in my opinion that is what gives a 12 its roar.

 

My suggestion for KR is to take his guitar to a really good tech who understands 12 bangers and have it set up correctly. Fix any structural issues, do a fret job, yadda yadda - get the guitar right. String it with 0.010 - 0.047 and experiment with tuning to concert, Db and D - with and without a capo. Report back

[kr236rk]

Many thanks. I think old time 12's were tuned to C because an old time 12 would fold up like a book if you attempted to tune up to E. Modern 12's are capable of E due to modern construction techniques I guess. I would only tune down to D permanently if there were rock solid reasons for so doing. I do know my Yam is critical because it was finely set up for E tuning in 1990, eliminating a fret buzz, so it would seem odd to me to change from E subsequently; I imagine the neck has indeed bowed slightly over the intervening 1/4 century making it harder to chord. Why I ended up with 11's on it is a mystery. Possibly I was in the process of re-stringing to 9's when I suddenly found myself in the middle of moving home, so the 9's got left in the box. The 12 is much easier to chord now and I will be taking it over to the music shop guys in several weeks time - am really looking forwards to that - they always do a good job. Will update!

[Freeman Keller]

Many thanks. I think old time 12's were tuned to C because an old time 12 would fold up like a book if you attempted to tune up to E. Modern 12's are capable of E due to modern construction techniques I guess. I would only tune down to D permanently if there were rock solid reasons for so doing............... Will update!

 

Not entirely true - some old time and modern 12 strings are built for down tuning - the Taylor LKSM, Fraulinis (which are based on the 1930's Stella's) and the guitars that I build are all braced and have scale lengths optimized for tuning to C or C# or D. The reason that players tune down is that they like the sound. My ladder braced guitar is strung with 13's but its 26.5 scale and tuning to C means that the tension is actually about the same as my old Martin tuned to concert. Leadbelly strung his Stella with 0.016 to 0.060 (yes, really) but tuned to A it probably wasn't too hard to play and it sure does roar.

 

Some people like the jangle of a 12 at concert - Roger McGuinn comes immediately to mind - and if that's the sound you want then by all means tune to concert. I'm just suggesting some alternatives. By the way, many modern 12 strings start sounding muddy if they are tuned below D, that seems to be about optimal. Find the tuning (and strings) you like and enjoy your great old guitar

 

Here's my small arsenal - 36 strings in all

 

 

 

[kr236rk]

Lovely stuff! I will stick to the tuning this old lady has known all her life - can't wait to see if a new set-up will improve on what I have now. I will update hopefully in a couple of weeks, many thanks

[DeepEnd]

"Old time" Guild 12-strings were built like tanks. The US made ones still are. But mostly the 12-strings I saw years ago were tuned to E by folks who didn't know any better. If you insist on tuning to E, make sure you stick with 9's because 10's at concert pitch would be murder on your Yamaha.

[kr236rk]

Yep, & murder on my fingers too! Just played a song on the new 9s and didn't have to strap a wrist support on my fretting hand straightaway afterwards. Thank GOSH I had those 9s in the back room!!