Jump to content

Top Ten Things You Should Never Do With Your Vintage Tube Amp


gardo

Recommended Posts

  • Members

 

Lol..I was thinking the same thing Phil...

And NEVER,EVER, loan your vintage tube amp to your flaky buddy, your drunk Uncle, or your girlfriend..I don't care how hot she is.

 

I'll take the amp over the girl any day. As the song goes, there's more pretty girls than one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 53
  • Created
  • Last Reply
  • Members

Is it a full moon this week or something? I thought the guy in the video was ignorant, but I must admit you got to be close to make that connection.

 

I said Vibrations moving an amp hot or cold are "No Worse" then the vibration tubes see from the speaker vibration with the tubes hot. Do I have to spell out what "no worse" means? Geeze.

 

I didn't even mention the fact that temp changes cause metal contraction and expansion which is what fatigues the metal and causes the failures. Vibrations merely accelerate that process. Am I going to be blamed for yet another contradiction because I left that fact out?

 

Second, I stated Vibration and improper loading are tube killers. Theres nothing contradictory other then your inability to understand my first statement. I also gave Tele some mod ideas to combat vibrations as being an issue with combos due to the can vibration. How can that contradict my first statement? It simply clarifies it.

 

A tube filament is essentially an incandescent light bulb. Question is when do most light bulbs blow. When they are running? Turned off and cooling? or when you power them up? I think most can agree a filament will likely blow at first power up when its cold.

 

The Thing is, in tubes aren't just light bulbs and given the fact they run at much lower voltages between 6 and 12 volts and the filament is heavy duty they rarely ever blow out. Most failures have nothing to do with the immediate temp. You can even make tubes run cold to the touch in a starved circuit design.

 

Fatigue is cause by the "changes" in temp over a longer period of time. Metal looses its crystalline structure and becomes brittle. The metal elements exhaust the number of electrons they can radiate and the tube gets weak and sounds bad.

 

If the tube has become microphonic, it was likely caused by expansion and contraction of the metals. What happens to the sound quality is the elements vibrate and instead of having a straight shot like a light beam through the grid, the moving grid diffracts the electrons and cause them to collide with each other. Fewer electrons get to the plate and the amplification is reduced.

 

Tube hiss is one result of this. When electrons collide they bounce around and cause tube hiss. Tube elements can become so bad they begin to act like a microphone and even have the elements oscillate causing a audible feedback loop. These are mechanical failures for the most part.

 

Add to that, Vacuum tubes are not a perfect vacuum. They contain gasses produced by the "getter" which is added to the tube during production. The gas the getter produces enhances the electron flow and keeps it in a steady beam. Those gasses do wear out over time and the fidelity goes down. Some can even leak out turning the inside of the tube white inside which usually results in tubes cracking and letting oxygen in.

 

Over biasing cooks off the getter at an accelerated rate and the tube fidelity goes drops quickly when the getter is used up or fried from high temps. When you over bias the tube elements can even make the elements glow red and cook it off completely within a few minutes.

 

Rebiasing it to a lower current wont fix the tubes once the gas is cooked off. That's why you have to get it right from the beginning and its also where the term burning in tubes comes from. It takes awhile for tubes to cook enough of the getter to have an even amount of gas in the tube and produce maximum fidelity. Heat is what dissolves the getter into gas which keeps the electrons in a focused beam. Too much heat destroys the getter and the tube is made useless.

 

Electrons come from the cathode when its heated. Heat fatigues metal and it can warp or crack, have its welded elements weaken or just fall apart shorting them together causing catastrophic tube failure. If the electrical contacts to the elements "open", you can have a number of additional failures.

 

If you reduce vibrations or hot biasing that cooks tubes prematurely lifespan goes up. Hot biasing them excels fatigue by forcing the metal to give off more electrons then it was designed to. It may sound great when its new but it comes at a price as do most situations where you burn a candle at both ends.

 

I know I'm wasting my time posting this because trolls don't seek knowledge, they suppress it as a method of elevating themselves. I just don't think people who post here are as ignorant as you and the guy in that video are which is the whole point of the thread.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

WRGKMC SAYS

"Is it a full moon this week or something? I thought the guy in the video was ignorant, but I must admit you got to be close to make that connection.

 

I said Vibrations moving an amp hot or cold are "No Worse" then the vibration tubes see from the speaker vibration with the tubes hot. Do I have to spell out what "no worse" means? Geeze.

 

I didn't even mention the fact that temp changes cause metal contraction and expansion which is what fatigues the metal and causes the failures. Vibrations merely accelerate that process. Am I going to be blamed for yet another contradiction because I left that fact out?

 

Second, I stated Vibration and improper loading are tube killers. Theres nothing contradictory other then your inability to understand my first statement. I also gave Tele some mod ideas to combat vibrations as being an issue with combos due to the can vibration. How can that contradict my first statement? It simply clarifies it.

 

A tube filament is essentially an incandescent light bulb. Question is when do most light bulbs blow. When they are running? Turned off and cooling? or when you power them up? I think most can agree a filament will likely blow at first power up when its cold.

 

The Thing is, in tubes aren't just light bulbs and given the fact they run at much lower voltages between 6 and 12 volts and the filament is heavy duty they rarely ever blow out. Most failures have nothing to do with the immediate temp. You can even make tubes run cold to the touch in a starved circuit design.

 

Fatigue is cause by the "changes" in temp over a longer period of time. Metal looses its crystalline structure and becomes brittle. The metal elements exhaust the number of electrons they can radiate and the tube gets weak and sounds bad.

 

If the tube has become microphonic, it was likely caused by expansion and contraction of the metals. What happens to the sound quality is the elements vibrate and instead of having a straight shot like a light beam through the grid, the moving grid diffracts the electrons and cause them to collide with each other. Fewer electrons get to the plate and the amplification is reduced.

 

Tube hiss is one result of this. When electrons collide they bounce around and cause tube hiss. Tube elements can become so bad they begin to act like a microphone and even have the elements oscillate causing a audible feedback loop. These are mechanical failures for the most part.

 

Add to that, Vacuum tubes are not a perfect vacuum. They contain gasses produced by the "getter" which is added to the tube during production. The gas the getter produces enhances the electron flow and keeps it in a steady beam. Those gasses do wear out over time and the fidelity goes down. Some can even leak out turning the inside of the tube white inside which usually results in tubes cracking and letting oxygen in.

 

Over biasing cooks off the getter at an accelerated rate and the tube fidelity goes drops quickly when the getter is used up or fried from high temps. When you over bias the tube elements can even make the elements glow red and cook it off completely within a few minutes.

 

Rebiasing it to a lower current wont fix the tubes once the gas is cooked off. That's why you have to get it right from the beginning and its also where the term burning in tubes comes from. It takes awhile for tubes to cook enough of the getter to have an even amount of gas in the tube and produce maximum fidelity. Heat is what dissolves the getter into gas which keeps the electrons in a focused beam. Too much heat destroys the getter and the tube is made useless.

 

Electrons come from the cathode when its heated. Heat fatigues metal and it can warp or crack, have its welded elements weaken or just fall apart shorting them together causing catastrophic tube failure. If the electrical contacts to the elements "open", you can have a number of additional failures.

 

If you reduce vibrations or hot biasing that cooks tubes prematurely lifespan goes up. Hot biasing them excels fatigue by forcing the metal to give off more electrons then it was designed to. It may sound great when its new but it comes at a price as do most situations where you burn a candle at both ends.

 

I know I'm wasting my time posting this because trolls don't seek knowledge, they suppress it as a method of elevating themselves. I just don't think people who post here are as ignorant as you and the guy in that video are which is the whole point of the thread."

Last edited by WRGKMC; 05-22-2015, 09:48 PM.

 

Well wkrmbul****************mc. I cut and pasted it. Putting it in comments to hide your shame and try any bury your flip flop conclusions aint gonna work.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
Putting it in comments to hide your shame and try any bury your flip flop conclusions aint gonna work.

 

???? WTF ???? I posted my response as a comment because it was a direct response to your false assumptions. I don't know where you grew up but in my country our first amendment gives us the right and duty to argue with people who make false accusations.

 

I don't enjoy calling people names but man you do meet the classic definitions of Internet Troll.

 

I truly wish I was wrong. I'm always willing to give people the benefit of doubt and I'm surely no prima donna who gets easily bent out of shape because someone disagrees with me.

 

If you have a valid point, make it. I may not agree but I will listen if you make your point well and can handle being confronted with counter arguments and still win your point. I have a deep respect for people who have strong beliefs founded in fact and I have absolutely no problems being corrected when they make their point. In fact I welcome it if I can learn from that intellectual debate.

 

I also know the difference between someone just having fun playing devils advocate to liven up a conversation and when someone has crossed the line and is engaging in personal attacks. In the past I thought maybe you just have a reading comprehension issue due to a language barrier from where you come from.

 

I still believe that's one of your issues but the fact is you have been carrying around this chip on your shoulder for over a year now. Your hate is so obvious because it makes you blind to what you're reading. You come up with these convoluted arguments that don't even exist. I thought it was only me but I've read many of your posts and most of the time you are overly callous to people and take every opportunity you get to attack people. The problem is half the time you don't even understand substance of the topic and wind up looking like a complete fool.

 

You really do need to learn to use some compassion when you communicate with people. People aren't here to attack each other playing gotcha. Most people who post here including myself do it in good faith and see those games as childish. Most people who post here have a real passion for their music and love sharing their knowledge and experiences. Most can tolerate the occasional troll in the living room, but when someone becomes a stalker its the communities responsibility to identify and chastise them for what they are.

 

Maybe its all you know. Its hard to imagine but maybe everyone you know is from Trollville but you do hang around here on a daily basis and I'd think you'd have learned something from the good people who post on these forums.

 

My suggestion is, If you have a disagreement, post your "own" statement on the topic and win your argument intellectually. Stop piggybacking on other peoples words playing silly games attempting to twist peoples words to invent things that don't exist.

 

I realize this probably not in your nature given your long history of negative comments, but you should know your current tactics are as predictable as it gets. If you want to be taken seriously, you really do need to work on your social and intellectual skills instead of hanging around taking potshots at people to make yourself look like a big deal. In the mean time I will continue to ignore you as I always do because you are truly a miserable person who has a mission to make everyone as miserable as yourself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

WRGK, if you so believe that Knotty is a classic definition of an internet troll, why do you break the number one rule of responding to trolls? Don't feed the troll. However, I think Knotty is simply responding to what he perceives as a contradiction in your posts.

 

But may I remind you that there is an Ignore List function on this board? If Knotty or other members bother you, you can make their posts disappear simply by inputting their username into your Ignore List. I mean, you did a good job ignoring my responses to you, so I don't see why you can't just ignore Knotty as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Well what shoulda shaped into a fun filled yet informative thread has been somewhat fun filled, quite informative, and a flame war between two specific people who are obviously both in posession of a lot of knowledge regarding vacuum tubes, even if they disagree quite disagreeably.

 

This is what I know...When I start getting treble distortion in my Trusty 'ol 67 Super Reverb, I call Rockin' Robin's guitar shop and get prices and recommendations on replacement tubes...And replace them all. I've had this amp since '75 and I have done that 3 times. I haven't replaced the rectifier since I replaced it with a solid state one in the mid 80's.

 

That's what I knew about tubes before this thread. I'm not changing my procedure on replacing them. And I'm haven't loaned my amp out since '88....It took me 3 years to get it back and the sonofbitch ripped out the 4 10's and sloppily put 2 12's in it.

 

I've kept a fresh fist sandwich waiting for him if I ever see him again.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

???? WTF ???? I posted my response as a comment because it was a direct response to your false assumptions. I don't know where you grew up but in my country our first amendment gives us the right and duty to argue with people who make false accusations.

 

I don't enjoy calling people names but man you do meet the classic definitions of Internet Troll.

 

I truly wish I was wrong. I'm always willing to give people the benefit of doubt and I'm surely no prima donna who gets easily bent out of shape because someone disagrees with me.

 

If you have a valid point, make it. I may not agree but I will listen if you make your point well and can handle being confronted with counter arguments and still win your point. I have a deep respect for people who have strong beliefs founded in fact and I have absolutely no problems being corrected when they make their point. In fact I welcome it if I can learn from that intellectual debate.

 

I also know the difference between someone just having fun playing devils advocate to liven up a conversation and when someone has crossed the line and is engaging in personal attacks. In the past I thought maybe you just have a reading comprehension issue due to a language barrier from where you come from.

 

I still believe that's one of your issues but the fact is you have been carrying around this chip on your shoulder for over a year now. Your hate is so obvious because it makes you blind to what you're reading. You come up with these convoluted arguments that don't even exist. I thought it was only me but I've read many of your posts and most of the time you are overly callous to people and take every opportunity you get to attack people. The problem is half the time you don't even understand substance of the topic and wind up looking like a complete fool.

 

You really do need to learn to use some compassion when you communicate with people. People aren't here to attack each other playing gotcha. Most people who post here including myself do it in good faith and see those games as childish. Most people who post here have a real passion for their music and love sharing their knowledge and experiences. Most can tolerate the occasional troll in the living room, but when someone becomes a stalker its the communities responsibility to identify and chastise them for what they are.

 

Maybe its all you know. Its hard to imagine but maybe everyone you know is from Trollville but you do hang around here on a daily basis and I'd think you'd have learned something from the good people who post on these forums.

 

My suggestion is, If you have a disagreement, post your "own" statement on the topic and win your argument intellectually. Stop piggybacking on other peoples words playing silly games attempting to twist peoples words to invent things that don't exist.

 

I realize this probably not in your nature given you long history of negative comments, but you should know your current tactics are as predictable as it gets. If you want to be taken seriously, you really do need to work on your social and intellectual skills instead of hanging around taking potshots at people to make yourself look like a big deal. In the mean time I will continue to ignore you as I always do because you are truly a miserable person who has a mission to make everyone as miserable as yourself.

 

How can I explain this in terms your ego will let you understand?

I dont care what you think, you are a fantasist.

I read and learn a great deal on here. In this context on the forum I am a taker, I don't have the experience in most circumstances to be a giver.

I do expect people who put themselves up as an expert, on ALL subjects on every thread to be consistent in their arguements though. Numerous time you contradict yourself on subject after subject. There is only one opinion, and thats yours. Well sorry but when I see the kings got no clothes I say so.

Others have pointed out your inconsistencies in other threads, you ignore those though, no reply, just let the thread drift down the list.

It is these things that I point out. Mainly to prick your MASSIVE ego.

If you didnt put yourself on such a high pedestal you would not be as easy to knock off.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

How can I explain this in terms your ego will let you understand? I dont care what you think, you are a fantasist. I read and learn a great deal on here. In this context on the forum I am a taker, I don't have the experience in most circumstances to be a giver. I do expect people who put themselves up as an expert, on ALL subjects on every thread to be consistent in their arguements though. Numerous time you contradict yourself on subject after subject. There is only one opinion, and thats yours. Well sorry but when I see the kings got no clothes I say so.

Others have pointed out your inconsistencies in other threads, you ignore those though, no reply, just let the thread drift down the list.

It is these things that I point out. Mainly to prick your MASSIVE ego. If you didnt put yourself on such a high pedestal you would not be as easy to knock off.

 

 

Man, the topic here is vintage tube amps which is something you obviously know little about. If you did there is no way in hell you'd see no contradiction in anything I've said. I tried to point out in great detail why you misunderstood but as usual its like talking to a dead phone with you.

 

You have NO desire to debate topics intellectually and your only defense is to deflect the topic and turn it into a personal grudge match.

 

When someone steps out of line and attempts to attack me or my profession personally, they can be dam sure I'm gong to speak out and let them know where things stand. I could care less what you think about me but you have no right to dictate what I will or will not say.

 

I will protect my name and my trade from losers like you who go around bashing people in my profession. I've dealt with creeps like you all my life and I know exactly what your problem is. You've told me in the past you are a salesman and a short time musician. I'm a professional Electronic Technician and Musician whose been successful at both for a long long time. I get paid for what I do and my mission is life is to be the best at what I do. There's nothing wrong with that what so ever.

 

If I come across to you as knowing more then I do well aint that too friggin bad for you.

Its either true or its not right?

 

If you think I'm full of crap, simple answer is ignore me. I don't need a toad like you stealing my experience anyway because you don't appreciate how you leaned what you did. If you get something out of it, good for you. You didn't have to bust your ass learning all that stuff the hard way like I did.

 

I'm not trying to convince you either way and I apologize if that's uncomfortable for you but it aint my problem. Its yours. Am I proud of my profession and what I've learned over the years. I surely don't need a weasely creep like you telling me I cant be proud of my accomplishments.

 

The fact is most people I deal with do not live in a country rooted in mediocrity like you do. People left that place to come here and be free to be the best they can be. You are into suppressing this lust for living and Its never going to happen. At least not with me. You're a blind man when it comes to identifying what's real and what's not and people like me will always appear to be larger then life to you because you just don't have the drive or opportunity to be good at what you do.

 

Its obvious you hate me because of this and you rack it up to being some kind of weird inflated ego thing. Fact is most of the time I'm just explaining things to kids on a kindergarten level. There are very few pro musicians or educated technicians who hang here any more. I pick and choose my comments on topics I know something about and have several friends here who do the same.

 

You have nothing in common with me. That's why I stay out of your posts and I recommend you stay out of mine. I work with salesman like you on my day job every day. I don't even like shopping in stores that have salesmen. I go in to buy something I need and all of a sudden you're being followed around by a bunch of zombies trying get into your wallet.

 

I realize they need to make commissions which is fine. Its just half the time they haven't got a clue what they are talking about and most aren't experienced enough to spot someone who actually does.

 

Salesman are a necessary evil in business, but the fact is, their profession is all about playing gotcha games and hooking customers in to buy something. If that's your thing be proud of it but don't be an ass who thinks he can go around jacking with other peoples professions.

 

Salesman are not the experts they think they all think they are and if anyone has a bloated egos, salesman do. Their measure their greatness is the deals they pull off. Success to them is measured in dollars and cents. Salesmen live in your own little world and have their ego contests with each other to see who is top dog of the month so you can walk around strutting your stuff. You must realize that only impresses other salesmen. The rest of us see it for what it is.

 

I don't tell you how to sell your junk because its not my profession. I didn't go to school to study all that stuff or sit in your sales classes or learn how to snake customers into deals. I have no passion at all for that trade. Instead I was the guy who took classes in electronics and music and was determined to make both my trade. I succeeded at that and I don't care what your ideas of success are.

 

Techs have steady jobs, steady income. We don't need to have our ego's massaged like you do, we don't need to earn commissions and we don't need to brag about what we do. We don't make allot of money but at least we aren't sweating out a commission.

 

Our sweat comes from dealing all the with angry customers salesman bamboozle into buying crap they don't need. It makes our lives a living hell and you wonder why we have to be knowledgeable and know how to do our jobs well?

 

Man you haven't got a clue how tough the job can be. You go into some major company that has gear down and you either come out of there as a hero or dead meat because customers have no problem beating up a technician if he doesn't get it right the first time.

 

Truth is I meet ultra rude people like you knotty every day. Problem with you is you don't recognize how lame you are and you don't even recognize how offensive you are to people. Thing is when someone like myself who knows the score confronts you, you act like a little girl and go crying to everyone else about it. When you're shown you are wrong on something you aren't even man enough to admit when you're wrong. What a friggin whimp.

 

Ever notice how salesmen never tip people who help them. Most have butts so tight you can hear them squeak walking down the halls. You wonder why I detest salesmen like knotty. Its because they disrespect people in my trade. They think they are smart enough to run techs down and belittle them. He does it all the time here and maybe he doesn't even know it. Guess he doesn't feel like a man unless he can put a boot on the back of a techs neck.

 

Well It aint going to happen here and it aint gonna happen with me. I'm wise to all your slimy tricks and your lame accusations. I know its why you been carrying around that grudge for the past year and a half.

 

Again. "Stay out of my posts and keep your foul comments to yourself" If you breach the peace you have fair warning I'm going to come back at you every time. You don't exist in my world and never will so quit wasting my time with your petty arguments that have nothing to do with the topic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Well I have heard some drivel from bitter people in the past but you take the biscuit. How bitter can one person be about their career.?Your whole diatribe is totally based on a false assumption. But thats not unusual for you. I have seen inside your head now and I actually feel quite sorry for you.

 

1. Get proffesional help.

2. I have a degree in physics and have been a Technician, manager, and marketeer in comms technology, microfilm and IT for 30+ years. We actually had a conversation about it, the one where you said all English techs were lazy.

3. I run my own IT business, I am not a Salesman. Your misconception is just another example of your ego taking over.

4. You were so succesful in the music business that youve been a front line, base level, first response tech all your life. FAIL, in anybodys book!

5. Get more proffesional help, you should get discount as they could write a book on you.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
Good thought there Buckstudent. Maybe it will keep that guys vindictive pie hole shut for awhile.

 

No more fantasies today.? Wanna retract your last incorrect, fictional rant? No I thought not, be wrong , ignore and move on. Failure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I'm going to make my own list:

 

1. The whole bit about an ungrounded power cord is true. Have a proper grounded cord installed.

2. Don't use shielded coaxial cable for speaker cable....especially for very long lengths of cord.

3. Always make sure your amp has a speaker load that's the proper impedance if you turn it on.

4. Have old electrolytic caps replaced in your vintage amp before they fail and damage other components.

5.Use the correct value fuse with your amp. Using one that's too highly rated just because it's available can damage things.

6. Use the correct tubes with your amp. Swapping out power tubes for ones with just the correct pinout can damage your amp.

7. Get rid of the "death cap" inside your amp. It does nothing good in this modern age of grounded power cords.

8. As far as servicing the amp....there ARE deadly voltages inside but if you know what you're doing, have at it. I've serviced my own amps for years. The internet can teach you a lot and electronics is a fun hobby.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 5 years later...
  • Members
On 5/19/2015 at 2:35 PM, gardo said:

I’m no tech & was concerned about continuing use of my pedals on a vintage tube amp! Thanks for clearing that up!

Those first two things in particular had me wondering.

I'm sure the last one is a snob joke but I somewhat feel that way too.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...