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Active speakers stink...there, I said it...


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So my point was that if this is true, then chances are if an active cab is in need of repair, it will simply not function because it probably won't be, say a blown diaphragm that is the problem.

 

 

I blew a diaphragm once in a horn of a Yamaha powered speaker. I don't know what caused the fail or even when it happened. All I know is I powered it up one gig and the horn wasn't working. Easy to fix myself as Yamaha sells the replacement diaphragms commercially. So it CAN happen and the cabinets WILL continue to function.

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I really wasn't trying to piss anyone off,just posting my opinion,but by posting quotes of my post,and arguing the stupidity of my opinion only serves to prove that I am right!!! So thanks for that gentlemen.I'm sure PRX powered systems sound great,I'm reasonably sure that SRX sounds BETTER.They should.Matching amps to speakers is a huge concern in this thread,and my stand is that if someone is to stupid to buy an amp that will properly power their speakers,they should probably just rent until they understand enough to make an informed decision/purchase. I am obviously not a genius,I thought auto-focus cameras were a passing fad as well!!! Lol I also never OWNED an autofocus camera,as to me all they did was make it where any idiot with the money to afford one(the early ones were not cheap),could take reasonably good pictures with no knowledge of how different films react to different exposure times,and a lot of other stuff that make good photographers good.These people completely missed out on the "hard" part of photography because it was all done for them.And IMO they didn't need to know things that were common knowledge just a few years earlier.I see this not so new technology (powered) in the same light.Now any idiot that can afford them can buy them,and sound great right out of the box without knowing anything else about them because they are,in their proponents opinions idiot proof.I really don't care what anyone else on here uses,I'm sure they are doing what they want as good as they can,but to deny that there has been an obvious shift on this particular forum,...well what can one say!!!!

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gonzobassman.... I absolutely think there has been a shift and this forum illustrates it well. My point is it's not a passing fad... It's progress. Your camera example is a very good one. Not everyone wants to be a professional photographer. They just want in focus, well lit, pictures of their kids dance recital and they want it done as easily as possible. Most users of PA (active or passive) are NOT professional sound guys, they are just dudes and dudettes trying to get their sound out to their audience. They want it to sound good, but really don't want a degree from Full Sail to do it.

 

By your logic other bad things:

 

- automatic transmission

- toasters

- the internet (no more dewey decimal point system. .... damn kids have it so easy)

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Guido61, I think you are misunderstanding my point. I am NOT a proponent of passive gear, and as I said several times, am already leaning toward the PRX based system we have discussed in many threads (some of which I created here). I am only trying to play Devil's Advocate here in the hopes that some more people will chime in. I am well aware of your points and your position, and thank you again for clarifying it even more. But by playing the other side of this debate, I was really kind of hoping that some people who know a helluva lot more than I do about passive gear would swoop in here and give their detailed opinions like you have.

 

The problem I am having thus far, and this may tentatively prove your point by the way, is that the active proponents are the only ones in this thread offering great detail and finely elucidated discourse. Now this could mean two things: One, that they have no counter to your points because you are unequivocally correct, or two, that there are not a lot of highly knowledgeable people here in this forum that are proponents of passive gear.

 

But again, I want to clarify that while it may seem like I am arguing or debating with you, I am not. In fact, I would be an absolute fool if I was because I don't have the knowledge to do so. But the way people like me (kind of sitting on the sidelines and also doing research on the topic) learn more is by people like you having a lively debate where tons of facts for both sides are presented.

 

In the end, obviously I will have to make up my own mind. But it would be really nice to see some of the passive gear proponents offer counter arguments to the things you are posting...that is if there are good counter arguments. Maybe there aren't because you are right and they are wrong and that's why they are so quiet! :)

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If you can figure and configure GEQ's, PEQ's, limiters, crossover points, power matching, and analyze (by ear or otherwise) optimal sound for your speakers, then there's nothing wrong with passive. I like to run largely passive (for dollar reasons), so I at least like to pretend I can do the above. But there are many people that can't even operate a GEQ properly, hence the often suggested powered speaker route.

 

Again, I don't have anything against active, it's just that used passive has been so cheap in the last few years. Now that active has been around a while and I'm seeing more used options, I might switch, but who knows. I did pick up a used Yorkville 720 sub this year - a real back saver.

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Abzurd,I am obviosly agreeing with you,you only need to read between the lines.That I don't embrace something that evens the playing field through technology is as it should be.I'm an older type dude,and the one thing that you can count on is that I will be a grumpier older type dude next year than I am this year!!! Lol The reason active is not for me,is the same as the reason auto-focus wasn't for me.That does not make either one of us wrong or right.IMO for me it makes more sense to get higher quality passive speakers,and amps,because I am reasonably sure that I can make them sound good,if not great,and that is part of MY joy as much as playing well is.When it is done for you right out of the box IMO you completely miss out on an equally satisfying dimension of playing out live that requires time,and just as much patience as learning to play an instrument.So,if it is all the same to you I suggest we respectfully agree to disagree on the powered/passive debate.

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(a little late to the party here...) The number one failure for me on my old SR4725s (passive box BTW), was vibration induced solder fatigue on the bulk caps. So passive does not mean it is resiliant to vibration fatigue. That said, and as Andy and Don have already said, modern electronic assemblies are designed to be vibration tolerant. I design amplifiers for automotive applications. I have many millions in the field under constant vibration and don't have any vibration failures unless there was a manufacturing defect (i.e. something not built correctly).

As to relative failure rates of passive vs. active: all things being equal, the failure rates should also be equal. The same components, topologies and design rules are used in both (often). Passive can be more prone to user error due to improperly matched systems, but then again Active systems could be more prone to noobie-itis. However finding really accurate statistics comparing the 2 most likely does not exist outside some specific company's internal quality metrix.

As to relative benefits/drawbacks: design is compromize. Which is better for you depends on which parameters mean more to your application. Personally, I love that I switched to an active FOH, but I also prefer my passive monitor setup. I find benefits and drawbacks in both types of systems. The key is to maximize the benefits and minimize the effects of the drawbacks.

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Guess what I see in the repair department every time I visit my dealer? Passive speakers - usually with blown woofers and/or horns - almost always because the user applied too much power. It's usually the cheap Samson Resound series, Wharfedale SVP or EVP-X cabs and the occasional Cerwin Vega. I think I've only seen one or two actives in there so far. There are, of course probably a higher number of these cheap Samsons type speakers in the field - simply because of their low price, but I guess I'll have to ask my dealer how the failure rates are. I do know, most of the failures are blown woofers and horns from too much power. It is usually operator error in both cases, but with properly matched amps to drivers and built-in limiting, the active cabs simply have a much better chance of surviving this abuse IMO.

 

Al

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The Auto-Focus Camera analogy is a pretty good one except it fails on one crucial point. Unlike auto-focus cameras, many of the top pro sound guys use and highly advocate the use of active speakers. So it's not just that they serve the purpose of making pretty good sound much easier for even the clueless idiots like myself to achieve, but they also make getting really great sound at the top professional level easier as well.

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Have the sub in my basement and as expected it is working fine, or at least it has been working fine for the past 1/2 hour.

I have some low level music playing through it while I have dinner...waiting for the bass to drop out so I can go run down stairs!

 

Going to open it up in a little bit and poke around...

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As to relative failure rates of passive vs. active: all things being equal, the failure rates should also be equal. The same components, topologies and design rules are used in both (often). Passive can be more prone to user error due to improperly matched systems, but then again Active systems could be more prone to noobie-itis.

 

 

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with this assessment. There's not much you can do wrong to an active system that isn't complete stupidity or accidental mechanical damage (like dropping it) while when all the components are on the outside there is all kinds of unintentional mayhem that you can perpetrate. They just don't balance on my scales. OTOH if you are strictly speakeing about just the odd unexplianed electronical or mechanical failure then I would agree they would be about equal.

 

btw ... what the hell is "noobie-itis"?

 

 

However finding really accurate statistics comparing the 2 most likely does not exist outside some specific company's internal quality metrix.

 

 

I'm I'm afraid you'll just have to take my word on that one as it is a proprietary secret. But I only have that sample of one company. But I would assume that it would be similar across industry standards.

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I'm I'm afraid you'll just have to take my word on that one as it is a proprietary secret. But I only have that sample of one company. But I would assume that it would be similar across industry standards.

 

 

One place to look where manufacturers have to strongly consider those internal statistics to come up with their level of commitment: warranty coverage.

 

Example from a large industry presence:

Club Series speakers, P series amplifier: 3 years; DSR, DXR, DXS speakers: 5 years.

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Well....took a look inside the amp section.
Nothing jumped out at me and said "Here I am, I am the issue!" like I was hoping for..

Did the only safe, basic thing that I could. Disconnected and re-seated what ever cables I could.
My only other thing to check would be the leads connecting to the speaker and the leads on the driver itself, but it appears I have to pull the driver out from the front of the cab for that as I couldn't figure out how to gain access (if even possible) from the amplifier section.
Couldn't see any more screws to remove and the housing felt like it was still solidly in place and wasn't moving.
Anyway, put it back together and it's still working :idk:

Here are some pic's that I took with my Auto-Focus camera :D

DSC02489.jpg
DSC02488.jpg
DSC02487.jpg

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For example, the six large solder joints down the center of the card on the first picture. Those look suspect as they are quite a bit larger than they should be for proper fillets. Of course, I cannot see any better than anyone else, so that's just an example of taking a closer look.

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I had a Yorkville NX25P that had sporadic distortion issues, so I took it to the store. Nobody on the floor could find the problem, so it went to the repair tech, who proclaimed that there was nothing wrong with it.... so I traded it in on the spot! I just knew that the second I used it on a gig again it would act up.

 

I'm hoping that's not the case here.

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For example, the six large solder joints down the center of the card on the first picture. Those look suspect as they are quite a bit larger than they should be for proper fillets. Of course, I cannot see any better than anyone else, so that's just an example of taking a closer look.

 

 

I'm guessing those just correspond to the adjustment pots

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As Don correctly pointed out, some of us do have data on relative reliability but it's not our data to disclose. Don's data and my data seem to agree in principle as well.

User error is probably the number one cause of speaker failure and bad cables along with user error is probably the leading cause of amp failure

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