Members Vinny D Posted June 10, 2012 Members Share Posted June 10, 2012 This is my thread and my rant....if you don't agree...too bad, you won't convince me otherwise. Another active PA cab craps out on me at a show, that makes two in two years. So, of the four years I have been using active cabinets I can't seem to get by the 2-year mark without having a failure. In almost 30-years of using passive cabinets & amplifiers...ZERO failures. No possible way anyone will ever convince me now that active speakers are the way to go, I am ready to pile up all of mine in my driveway and have a barn fire. F'n junk....yes, I am pissed if you have not figured it out by now. And it's not like these have been crap brand speakers that have been failing, Electrovoice SXa250 and now Yorkville LS801P. The Electrovoice had to have the amp module replaced.....that took almost three months dealing with a local EV warranty center The Yorkie I am guessing will have to have the same, as it's the only way I will feel confident on using the cabinet ever again. The problem started about 4-shows ago, after setting up the PA and running some music through it at low volumes before the band started I noticed that my low end was cutting out.. Quickly determined what speaker it was and tried the usual quick fix remedies of swapping XLR cables out and kicking it to see if it would come back on..Wasn't the cables and none of my kicking seemed to help either.. Then at random...the speaker would come back on, work for a few seconds then quit again. It always passed the signal through to the other speakers...that was a good thing because this sub was the first speaker that received a signal! It also always seemed to work while the band was playing Never noticed it dropping out, once the break music was back on..it was back to dropping out again. With having a show the very next night I didn't really have time to tear the truck apart and have a look at anything...and because the next show was a wedding I figured even if I had to bypass the one sub because it was not working I could do the job with the one remaining working sub. Well wouldn't you know it...the sub worked fine all night, during break music and the band. Made it through two and a half more shows before the problem came back again last night. First two sets went off perfect, then during the break music I noticed the low end started cutting out again...it then continued through the third and final set. At the end of the night I was ready to just toss the sub in the ocean...it was a beach front venue So now comes the hassle of having to deal with a repair center that is going to test the speaker and tell me that there is nothing wrong with it because it will work....the problem is, how long will it work for? I am not worried about being without a sub..I have my other rig which I have wanted to load back in the truck for a while now and, my local dealer will let me use what ever I want out of his store. It's just unless the repair center finds something clearly wrong (bad solder connection, cracked board) the only thing that will make me feel confident in using the sub again is to have the amp module replaced...and I am sure the sub is probably just out of warranty (just like the EV was) So thats it, I am pretty much done with ever buying another active cabinet. Don't care waht brand, model or price tag...never again.. Have a nice day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bobby1Note Posted June 10, 2012 Members Share Posted June 10, 2012 At the end of the night I was ready to just toss the sub in the ocean...it was a beach front venue Have a nice day Were there any nicely-filled bikini's there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted June 10, 2012 Members Share Posted June 10, 2012 I am pretty much done with ever buying another active cabinet.Don't care waht brand, model or price tag...never again.. I could see keeping one around (I'm thinking of buying one active cabinet) just for a test-bench tool, so I don't have to drag out an amp rack, speakon cable, and speaker to test a board or similar. I'm thinking a JBL Eon with mic and line inputs would be handy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Coaster Posted June 10, 2012 Members Share Posted June 10, 2012 yeah i'm pretty much done with automobiles too, see i had one break once so i'm done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted June 10, 2012 Members Share Posted June 10, 2012 This is my thread and my rant....if you don't agree...too bad, you won't convince me otherwise. Another active PA cab craps out on me at a show, that makes two in two years. In almost 30-years of using passive cabinets & amplifiers...ZERO failures. I think your sampling size is just too small to make a valid decision. In 30+ years of doing live sound and thousands of pieces of gear (a lot of this because I work in manufacturing) I can tell you that stuff sometimes just fails. That's not to say that the particular model you ended up with isn't more likely to fail than maybe some other piece of gear. so while your personal experience seems to point one way, the bigger picture would suggest otherwise. I can tell you (again from a manufacturer's standpoint) that the self powered systems that I have been associated with have about a 10x lower failure rate then separate power amps and passive speakers ... especially if you consider driver failures. And that doesn't even begin to consider the performance failures caused by bad cables (which was your "usual" quick fix) with separates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted June 10, 2012 Members Share Posted June 10, 2012 Active subs just don't turn me on either - nor do active monitors. But for tops the hassle of biamping (two stereo amps), limiting and EQing (DSP) passive tops makes active tops more desirable IMO. Vinny, if I was you I'd take a quick peek at the leads to the driver - could be the amp module itself is OK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators MrKnobs Posted June 10, 2012 Moderators Share Posted June 10, 2012 An intermittent amp that mostly works with strong input could be a very easy fix. Might just be a ribbon cable or a bad solder joint. Often when something starts working with a strong (vs weak) signal in, you're bridging a bad connection of some sort. Personally, I'd try to fix it. YMMV. As far as active vs passive, I'm of a mixed mind. I love discrete amps and speaks because if one or the other dies you still have the other part working with an easy swap. This is very handy at larger shows when you have a lot of redundancy present (like repatching half of an stereo amp). When an active speaker dies, both your speaker and your amp are out of service. Also, active speakers are heavier than passive. Then again, you don't have that metal case for the amp to add weight as the speaker enclosure doubles as the case. On the other hand, active speakers let you get more in the van and make setup a bit faster and simpler. I love setting up Julie's little Eons for mains (at a very small show) or monitors (at bars that have {censored} or no monitors) but the tradeoff on the Eons is that about all you can say is they're a little better than nothing - certainly not comparable to a good wedge monitor with a dedicated power amp back in the rack. Terry D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members drumstix Posted June 10, 2012 Members Share Posted June 10, 2012 I've had goog luck at first with a few sets of active speakers but as of late.....not so good. Just this year or the last six months ivehad three different boxes go down. First was one of my trusty old FBT Maxx4a's. I just picked it up on Friday and now have a different problem with it. So back to the repair shop. Only two repair shops in all of Southern Cal and it's a 90 mile round trip drive. Second failure was one of my RCF NX10's. Damaged voice coil. The woofer is getting repaired and Mike Pyle has expedited me a replacement from RCF. This box has been down a month. Third. A JBL VRX918SP went Down during a live show. At least it passed the signal for the remaining set until I could rewire the stack. It was covered under warranty but took a solid month in the shop. The wait time was on parts from JBL. Luckily I still have my K10's so I could at least have a matching set of mains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted June 10, 2012 Members Share Posted June 10, 2012 I have a few budget pieces for smaller gigs. But I am definitely a passive speaker kind of guy for larger stuff. Just makes far more sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiroVette Posted June 10, 2012 Members Share Posted June 10, 2012 I don't know, this is all very confusing to a customer like me. On the one hand, there do seem to be an inordinate number of people who have problems with active gear, and it can absolutely be a show stopper. On the other hand, since most people are only vocal about problems, it could "seem" that there are a lot of problems and that might not really be the case. I will say that I do read about more problems with active than passive gear, whatever significance that holds. Also, it certainly seems like people needing warranty work on their active gear have to wait an awfully long time to get their gear back. That might work for someone who has a ton of backup gear, but what about the guy like me who tosses everything he has saved into ONE system and one system only, then loses HALF his front end and has to wait months for it to be repaired? I notice a few pat answers to this in the forum of posts like: yeah i'm pretty much done with automobiles too, see i had one break once so i'm done. But while that might seem logical, it is neither helpful or a reasonable position to me. Because EVERY time I have ever needed to get my car fixed it either took a FEW HOURS and I was back on the road or my insurance company provided me with a rental in the interim. Now if JBL, QSC, and others would overnight free rental gear replacements for warranty repairs, then I might be more inclined to take this position a little more seriously. So sentiments like this reek of an almost fanboy condescension to me. I am sure that isn't how you mean it, but when a guy loses a good portion of his rig for MONTHS at a time and has has a lot of bad experience, this just doesn't come off very helpful. All that said, I guess the real question is this: Is a system based on passive gear STATISTICALLY more reliable than its active equivalent? Now I am not talking about isolated incidents here, but overall. Does anyone have percentages, failure rates, statistical analysis? To use game consoles as an example, I own the 360 and the PS3, and I remember when the 360 first launched it had a definite, measurable failure rate which Microsoft HAD TO address. There was a published statistical analysis that anyone could Google if they wanted in order to make their decision. However, I get the feeling that isn't the case with "active gear" as a whole. One more question I think bears asking: If your passive gear goes down, given that it is all separate components, is it intrinsically EASIER to deal with? I mean, I have blown horns in the middle of shows, but I can get through it! An amp goes? Okay, I run the rig off what I have and maybe make the front end mono and have to suffer through a few less monitor mixes. All in all this is a TOUGH choice, and snippy little comments, while maybe containing a certain amount of inherent wisdom, really aren't all that helpful in my honest opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members prosigna Posted June 10, 2012 Members Share Posted June 10, 2012 My initial thought about active speakers (many years ago) remains my biggest problem with active speakers. For all of the wonderful advantages a good active speaker possesses, one thing remains. A speaker cabinet, with all of its inherent vibration, is a hostile environment for the electronics of the processing and amplification. None of us would put vibration plates under our amp racks and expect them to last for many years of service. The idiot-proof nature of the active speaker (protection circuits and such) can outweigh the failure due to vibration. If there way a vibration proof chamber within the cabinet to house the electronics I would sleep better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vinny D Posted June 10, 2012 Author Members Share Posted June 10, 2012 yeah i'm pretty much done with automobiles too, see i had one break once so i'm done. It's my thread topic and I will cry if I want to...and I am not done crying yet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vinny D Posted June 10, 2012 Author Members Share Posted June 10, 2012 Vinny, if I was you I'd take a quick peek at the leads to the driver - could be the amp module itself is OK? Yeah I was thinking of that as I was visiting my pond supply store getting some new air lines for there air stones..I am going to pull it out of my truck and open it up this week and see if there is anything that pops out as being the issue, if I can't find what the cause is then off to the service center it goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vinny D Posted June 10, 2012 Author Members Share Posted June 10, 2012 An intermittent amp that mostly works with strong input could be a very easy fix. Might just be a ribbon cable or a bad solder joint. Often when something starts working with a strong (vs weak) signal in, you're bridging a bad connection of some sort. Personally, I'd try to fix it. Terry D. The cabinet originally only was quiting during break music, but last night it didn't matter...it was going out while the band was playing also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Two of Seven Posted June 10, 2012 Members Share Posted June 10, 2012 .............But while that might seem logical, it is neither helpful or a reasonable position to me. Because EVERY time I have ever needed to get my car fixed it either took a FEW HOURS and I was back on the road or my insurance company provided me with a rental in the interim. Now if JBL, QSC, and others would overnight free rental gear replacements for warranty repairs, then I might be more inclined to take this position a little more seriously............. Back when all my gear was purchased from the local mom & pop music shop easy access to loaner and rental equipment was the expected standard. The shift to big box gave us lower price and greater selection in exchange for good, quick, and convenient service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DaBender Posted June 10, 2012 Members Share Posted June 10, 2012 A speaker cabinet, with all of its inherent vibration, is a hostile environment for the electronics of the processing and amplification. None of us would put vibration plates under our amp racks and expect them to last for many years of service. As I was reading this topic, I was thinking back to when I got my sub (passive) and how I came to this forum to ask if it was ok to use it as a platform for my amp & mixer, etc. The consensus was "no, the vibrations could be bad for your electronic equipment". I've heeded the advice and managed to scrounge up a tabletop everywhere we go. I realize some of the concern may have been for the mixer, as there's a lot of moving parts there, but the advice seemed to apply to everything. It always made me wonder why active cabinets didn't suffer from this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Marko Posted June 10, 2012 Members Share Posted June 10, 2012 I wonder why, at least initially, it was having more trouble with the break music. Maybe more bass-heavy music? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiroVette Posted June 10, 2012 Members Share Posted June 10, 2012 Back when all my gear was purchased from the local mom & pop music shop easy access to loaner and rental equipment was the expected standard. The shift to big box gave us lower price and greater selection in exchange for good, quick, and convenient service. Hmmm I wonder if Guitar Center (though admittedly not a Mom & Pop store) would offer something like this? Might be a decent incentive to buy from them rather than saving a ton of money on the Internet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gonzobassman Posted June 10, 2012 Members Share Posted June 10, 2012 I think active is great for those that NEED to go that route. I also think that if you understand how to route signal,and speaker lines,then it just becomes preference as to the active/passive debate. For me active P.A. systems are something I will probably never get into.Not because they "suck",but just because IMO they are a passing fad.I can see where they can be helpful to noobs,but it does not require much more than minimal effort to understand how to hook things up,and run them.It takes far more effort to understand the real stuff like gain structure.IMO this forum has as of late become a pro-active at all cost forum.I mean when a guy asks the correct way to hook another sub into his P.A.,which by most standards is sub-par equipment,and within eight or nine posts starts getting flamed about his "junk",and how he needs to go active,or when someone reports an active failure(which is happening more,and more BTW),they are told that is has to be expected,and blah,blah,blah.If I buy a set of 728s,and a 4050 to run them,I am NOT expecting failure of any kind with the possible exception of user error!!! For me I will stay passive,and learn what I can about all of it,but I will never accept that if I spend the kind of money that it takes to get into a good active system I should,at some point expect a failure somewhere in the line.To me that just represents the lowering of the bar as far as any expectation of quality goes. As always...Thanx!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Audiopyle Sound Posted June 10, 2012 Members Share Posted June 10, 2012 Second failure was one of my RCF NX10's. Damaged voice coil. The woofer is getting repaired and Mike Pyle has expedited me a replacement from RCF. This box has been down a month. In fairness to RCF, it could have been up within days or even the next day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dookietwo Posted June 10, 2012 Members Share Posted June 10, 2012 My initial thought about active speakers (many years ago) remains my biggest problem with active speakers. For all of the wonderful advantages a good active speaker possesses, one thing remains.A speaker cabinet, with all of its inherent vibration, is a hostile environment for the electronics of the processing and amplification. None of us would put vibration plates under our amp racks and expect them to last for many years of service.The idiot-proof nature of the active speaker (protection circuits and such) can outweigh the failure due to vibration. If there way a vibration proof chamber within the cabinet to house the electronics I would sleep better. Of course bass guitar/guitar/keyboard etc. amps don't follow this rule? They have been around for MANY years.Vibration is vibration. I doubt thats the main killer of powered speakers. Walk over to your amp racks on a loud night and put you hands on them. Bet they are thumpin' away. How many pictures here do you see of rigs with the amps just a few feet from the subs? I don't know how the OPs speakers failed. How they were stored/taken care of. Drove into the ground or babied but things do fail. I know there is at least 6 pairs of Ls800ps in my area in service for more than 7 years or so. Not a problem with any of them. Stored in -25 degree plus temps and shoved into service before the frost has had a chance to melt off them. Time after time. Maybe clip lights should be on front of the Ls subs so people have a better idea as to what is going on inside. Dookietwo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted June 10, 2012 Members Share Posted June 10, 2012 That really stinks Vinny I had passive for a number of years. In that time, I lost one HF driver in a top, and one 18" driver in a CV folded horn sub (say 10 years). I have been using active for the last 3 years (first my drummers CVA's, and now my DSR's and PRX's). We haven't had any failures yet (knocks on wood). I don't know that I ever did anything wrong with the passive rig to break them, they simply broke and I noticed some time later when ringing out the system in my basement. The active system, I have accidentally ran pegged on one side all night with a rock band with no damage. This is just my sample size of 1 I am really sad that you have had such horrible luck. No one wants to have gear fail at all, but certainly not at a gig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted June 10, 2012 Members Share Posted June 10, 2012 On the other hand, active speakers let you get more in the van and make setup a bit faster and simpler. Terry D. Here it depends. Yes it is less items (and usualy cu' to move) but simpler setup isn't necessarily a given. I'd USUALY rather have centralized power and run one speaker cable (a single NL4 makes for good bi-ampability) vs running a bunch of noise susectable line level signals AND power daisy chained all around the stage. Ease of setup is a mixed bag (IMO only sometimes the case). I agree that I'm of a mixed mind about them as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators MrKnobs Posted June 10, 2012 Moderators Share Posted June 10, 2012 The cabinet originally only was quiting during break music, but last night it didn't matter...it was going out while the band was playing also. I still suspect a mechanical intermittent, like a bad solder joint or cable, possibly vibration intermittent from what you describe, especially since the amp was inside a speaker cabinet. Mechanical intermittents usually get gradually worse (as you described), eventually staying open circuit. Open it up and have a look, if you feel comfortable doing that. You can feed some signal into it and jiggle the connectors, gently wiggle caps, press down / tap on circuit boards and ICs with a pencil eraser, etc. Often times something like this can be fixed by exercising / reseating a connector or reheating a joint. It's a $0, 20 min repair if you get lucky. Terry D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nchangin Posted June 11, 2012 Members Share Posted June 11, 2012 Me thinks field replaceable amplifiers would be a really groovy ideer. I'm a rookie, I'm sure the higher end gear has this as options.....but One button, lift, pull, replace. I know the B52 Matrix amplifier is user replaceable and they sell replacements (if out of warranty), it's not a easy pull, but eight screws and pull, replace. Yes. And about the post about the vibrations, the amp is built in the box, I would assume any frequencies traveling through the wood, would it not be vibrating at the resonant frequency of the box? Compared to the bass on a floor, going through the wheels of the rack to the amplifiers, I'm sorry but I would think the vibration would be minimal compared to the pounding those amps are taking (esp on subs) on active speakers?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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