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SRX system out of gas


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I did a gig this weekend. It was a one man band. He played everything from classic rock to r&b. During some of the heavier rock songs and r&b stuff I was finding my system running out of gas. The venue was about 300 people in a room that was maybe 40'x60'. This was my setup:

 

pair of SRX718 powered by XTi4002

pair of SRX712m as mains powered by 4002

Pair of SRX712 as monitors powered by 4002

My SL24

Shure beta 58 mics

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Two more 718's and splay or stack the 712's. (couple the horns) might help. Or perhaps it's time for a pair of 722's or 725's. Or the new STX835.

 

A local HC member uses 4 718's and 4 712's as mains all the time for those size crowds with good results.

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The older I get, the more I think that limitations aren't always bad. If you were running out of gas with that system in a 40' by 60' room with a solo artist, then that might have been a good thing. At least for the sake of your own ears.

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I believe that system was probably out of gas, not that unreasonable if it was a R&R type crowd.

This is a pic I posted just the other week of the system I put into a 30' x 30' room, (2)TX9s subs (2) QW3f highs powered by (2) Crown IT8k.

DSC02626.jpg

 

The main reason I used that rig in that small room was because it is all I have running at the moment, however....once that room got packed with bodies I don't think I could have done it without it.

Seems foolish for such a big system in a small room, but depending on the music and the crowd it is sometimes needed.

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How loud was it? What was the limiting factor?

 

If you need more rig, double up what you have, the tops combine nicely. If you stack the tops horn to horn it's an amazingly punchy compact rig but you will need breakout cables as you can't loop through one box to the other.

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Two more 718's and splay or stack the 712's. (couple the horns) might help. Or perhaps it's time for a pair of 722's or 725's. Or the new STX835.


A local HC member uses 4 718's and 4 712's as mains all the time for those size crowds with good results.

 

 

I agree. I really like the 712m but that horn can "run out of gas"when used for mains. My 722's don't!

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I did a gig this weekend. It was a one man band. He played everything from classic rock to r&b. During some of the heavier rock songs and r&b stuff I was finding my system running out of gas. The venue was about 300 people in a room that was maybe 40'x60'. This was my setup:


pair of SRX718 powered by XTi4002

pair of SRX712m as mains powered by 4002

Pair of SRX712 as monitors powered by 4002

My SL24

Shure beta 58 mics

Out of gas with a solo act inside? Have you gone through and set your gain structure correctly? If not then google how to properly set up gain structure.

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We run 4 712's over 4 718's and can handle 500 inside with some to spare. We run our subs off some older Crest 7001's and they perform very well. We own 3 of the 1st gen XTI4001's and have run the subs off these occasionally but I was very under impressed with their performance.

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...


The main reason I used that rig in that small room was because it is all I have running at the moment, however....once that room got packed with bodies I don't think I could have done it without it.

Seems foolish for such a big system in a small room, but depending on the music and the crowd it is sometimes needed.

 

 

How does one determine whether or not it

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Ok, to answer some questions:

 

Yes, the 712's were pole mounted over the subs. The speakers were well above people's heads tilted downward.

 

By me saying that the system ran out of gas, the system thumped pretty nicely on the 20'x20' dance floor. About 40 feet away the sound was pretty well drowned out. Subs couldn't really carry the lows anymore beyond 30 feet. When I tried to increase the main volume, the system started feedbacking. If I try to reduce the feedback frequency, then singer sound all muffled up. I self concluded that there was not enough headroom.

 

I will openly admit that the system may not be tuned 100%, but I would say it was at least 95%. So many factors involved, but I would assume that doubling up the system would give me more headroom (gain before feedback).

 

Now for the hooking up two 712's, I am certain that it's got "input" and "thru" jacks. Wouldn't this be how you would loop from one cab to the next?

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Ok, to answer some questions:


Yes, the 712's were pole mounted over the subs. The speakers were well above people's heads tilted downward.


By me saying that the system ran out of gas, the system thumped pretty nicely on the 20'x20' dance floor. About 40 feet away the sound was pretty well drowned out. Subs couldn't really carry the lows anymore beyond 30 feet. When I tried to increase the main volume, the system started feedbacking. If I try to reduce the feedback frequency, then singer sound all muffled up. I self concluded that there was not enough headroom.


I will openly admit that the system may not be tuned 100%, but I would say it was at least 95%. So many factors involved, but I would assume that doubling up the system would give me more headroom (gain before feedback).


Now for the hooking up two 712's, I am certain that it's got "input" and "thru" jacks. Wouldn't this be how you would loop from one cab to the next?

 

 

I think AH was referring to stacking vertical, HF drivers together. I would still like to see the contraption he has made for this.

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Ok, to answer some questions:


Yes, the 712's were pole mounted over the subs. The speakers were well above people's heads tilted downward.


By me saying that the system ran out of gas, the system thumped pretty nicely on the 20'x20' dance floor. About 40 feet away the sound was pretty well drowned out. Subs couldn't really carry the lows anymore beyond 30 feet. When I tried to increase the main volume, the system started feedbacking. If I try to reduce the feedback frequency, then singer sound all muffled up. I self concluded that there was not enough headroom.


I will openly admit that the system may not be tuned 100%, but I would say it was at least 95%. So many factors involved, but I would assume that doubling up the system would give me more headroom (gain before feedback).


Now for the hooking up two 712's, I am certain that it's got "input" and "thru" jacks. Wouldn't this be how you would loop from one cab to the next?

 

 

Well that's completely different from what I assumed. You had more oomph but couldn't use it because of feedback. That's a set up, room, eq, or general physical limitation problem, Not a lack of headroom.

 

IMO the only way doubling up would solve a feedback problem is if you oriented the speakers differently. Like deploying them to optimize coverage - "delay" stacks, coverage patterns, etcetera.

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Ok, to answer some questions:


Yes, the 712's were pole mounted over the subs. The speakers were well above people's heads tilted downward.


By me saying that the system ran out of gas, the system thumped pretty nicely on the 20'x20' dance floor. About 40 feet away the sound was pretty well drowned out. Subs couldn't really carry the lows anymore beyond 30 feet. When I tried to increase the main volume, the system started feedbacking. If I try to reduce the feedback frequency, then singer sound all muffled up. I self concluded that there was not enough headroom.


I will openly admit that the system may not be tuned 100%, but I would say it was at least 95%. So many factors involved, but I would assume that doubling up the system would give me more headroom (gain before feedback).


Now for the hooking up two 712's, I am certain that it's got "input" and "thru" jacks. Wouldn't this be how you would loop from one cab to the next?

 

 

 

First, you can't defeat the laws of physics. Doubling the distance reduces sound levels by 6dB...that's a lot. So what sounded fine at 20 feet is defnitely going to be noticeably reduced at 40 feet. Add the factor of a packed room, and you lose all the advantages of any room reverb.

 

Next, I don't understand how you draw the conclusion that feedback somehow indicates a lack of headroom. Headroom is unused power. Has nothing at all to do with why you get feedback and is definitely not synonymous with gain before feedback.

 

Lastly, did you get clip lights on any part of the system? If your amps are sized well to the speakers, and you didn't get clip lights briefly flashing, you were absolutely not "out of gas".

 

Get your set up so it doesn't feed back, and you'll have more success. It's very unusual to have feedback from FOH (rather than stage monitors) in a packed room, so you may have really been pounding eardrums to death. Get some knowledgeable and unbiased input from those at the show about the performance levels before you try to go louder.

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Here is a video with one amp running both 718/712's. Outdoor show with around 300 people in the direct listening area, about the size you described in your first post. Not even close to hitting limiters at this show.

 

 

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I thought something else might be going on. I've rarely heard of an SRX system running out of gas unless it was due to a large room or the great outdoors. A 40x60 room should be covered nicely by a well tuned SRX system. Seems like any system would feedback at the volumes required if the mic placement and EQ were not optimized for the room. I was following this thread because I knew that there was something about it that just didn't quite make sense to me.

 

As an example, my PRX system easily covers 40x60 but we use IEMs and that REALLY cuts down on the potential for feedback.

 

OP, were the mains or the monitors feeding back?

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