Having trouble getting an Ibanez PF25 to play without buzzing, Tech says it needs Humidification

[guit30]

I have a friend who bought a new Ibanez around a year ago , for his daughter, at a local store, here in Philly. He has taken it back for tweaking a couple of times. I used to buy stuff at that store,, and from what I remember, he was not too great, He put a bone saddle and maybe nut on a Fender acoustic that I used to have, and it was better ,but real expensive. I had the same guitar, but an earlier version, never had any problems, I just wanted to play a guitar with a solid top. Anyway, the tech tells him that he needs to humidify it, because it was dried out. I had always thought that you didn't need to worry about humidity with all laminate guitar. The action looks about where you would want it for that guitar, no relief, I adjusted that for him, adjuster felt loose, it turned real easy, I just turned it about a quarter turn. Also, the strings looked too low for me at the nut. He told me when he bought the guitar, they gave him a new one, still packed in box. I found that guitar was only made for 2 years 94-96, He bought this in 2013, so it had been packed in case and box for over 15 years without any humidification, any thoughts would be appreciated.

[JT Foote]

From what I have seen, any guitar can suffer from a severe lack of humidity, given enough time, even laminated guitars. Tops can become concave and cause bracing to pop loose, the bridge can rotate, the woods crack, glue joints get weakened, frets can work their way loose, etc. And all of those things can effect the action. And there is the fact that with a cheaper guitar, it might not be cared for like a better guitar, and be subject to a broader range of temperature extremes, like being left in a hot car, or stuck in an attic near a furnace.

 

The only real way to tell if a lack of humidity is the culprit is to look for the signs. Considering that his has been out of that box for a year, it should have have acclimated to his environment in that time, even if it was in a box for 15 years previously. And it could be a combination of the two, dried out for years, and then left at a low RH while at his house, further intensifying the problem.

 

Whether this was responsible for the buzzing ... hard to say. You'd need to take some measurements. If the nut slots were too low, and the relief dead flat, if the action was low, and any frets were uneven, that would do it. Plus, when you adjusted the truss rod, if the nut was stripped, it might turned easily, but it also might not have actually done anything to the neck.

 

And maybe he just got the action too low when he had the nut and saddle replaced. You didn't say what kind of strings he was using, so if he was running something like extra lights + a low action, with the relief at zero, it would be hard for the guitar NOT to buzz out. Add in that buzzes can come from a myriad of reasons, from a loose truss rod nut, to a tuner bushing, to a loose brace, to a high fret ... you see the problem with diagnosing from a distance.

 

This page might help: Buzz Diagnosis

 

... JT

[guit30]

Thanks for replies, it is a piece of junk guitar in my opinion, does not look like it has any symptoms of being dried out, still has original light gauge strings on it, truss rod could be stripped.

[Freeman Keller]

Thanks for replies' date=' it is a piece of junk guitar in my opinion, does not look like it has any symptoms of being dried out, still has original light gauge strings on it, truss rod could be stripped.[/quote']

 

First, laminated guitars can suffer from humidity issues just like solid wood. They typically don't crack but they can have all the other issues, including a sunken top (which leads to buzzing)

 

Second, if the guitar has sat in its case for 15 years how do you think the truss rod got stripped?

 

Third, buzzes can have lots of causes - depending on where they occur on the fretboard including one or more bad frets, a sunken top, too much relief or too little relief, too light of strings or bad strings, too low nut slots and/or too low action. I never start doing any setup work on a dry guitar until it has been thoroughly humidified.

 

Fourth, I've managed to make a lot of "piece of junk" guitars play pretty darn well as long as there is no significant structural issues.

 

Lastly, you might think your tech is expensive but I charge $35 to make a bone saddle (five bucks for the blank and one hours labor) and $65 for a bone nut (blank plus two hours labor). If you buy both from me you get a complete setup to your playing requirements. Is that expensive? Lots of people don't think so (and by the way, I put a lot more than three hours into the job).

[guit30]

Hi Freeman,

Great to hear your response, someone on the board suggested the truss rod could be stripped because it was so loose when I turned it. Your price does not sound too expensive. This guitar does not look dried out. The action does not look too low. But, the nut looks poorly done. The action at 12th fret goes from bass,3/16 to 1/8 at treble side. The neck is straight with a tiny amount of relief, I adjusted it about a quarter turn. It was very loose, but maybe that is just the way it is. It has enough relief and high enough action where it should not be buzzing like it is. The nut looks too lo in my opinion. When you play single string, it is really bad above the 12th fret. The frets have a strange design to them, with the original light gauge strings , it is hard to push a string to the fretboard between the frets. There is not much info about this PF25 on the web, except it was made for 2 years 94-96. I had an Ibanez PF10 which was never a problem, I just got rid of it to get a FenderDG20s, which had a solid top.

My friend is still doing a full tilt rehumidify job with a sound hole humidifier, and 2 baggied sponges. Going to be rough with this weather. I had a Yamaha for 25 years, never did anything to it, did not know About humidifying during this part of my life. It was all laminate. Thanks for replying, any ideas?

[DeepEnd]

The truss rod probably isn't stripped. It may have simply been very loose. The truss rod on my AW120 was extremely loose when I bought it--no resistance at all in either direction. I tightened it very slightly until I felt a small amount of resistance just on principle. It could also possibly have been stripped at the factory during the initial setup but I consider that less likely.

After the guitar has been rehumidifed, take some measurements so we know what you're dealing with. "It doesn't look like it should be buzzing" doesn't really tell us anything. Check for high frets too.

BTW, AFAIK, the Performance (PF) line has always been all laminated but I could easily be wrong. I do wonder how a 20 year old guitar could still be in the original box. I suspect they started making the guitar again within the last few years. MusiciansFriend shows it as unavailable but there are three reviews, all from 2011: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/guita...itar-with-case. It seems unlikely anyone would bother to review a guitar after 20 years so it's probably not as old as you think.

Freeman: The last time I checked, the going rate here in St. Louis is $40 labor+cost of a blank ($5 for bone, $10 for TUSQ) for a nut. I've never bothered to get a quote for a saddle since I can make my own or buy them by the dozen on eBay.

[Freeman Keller]

As DE says, the truss rod probably is not stripped. There are three popular kinds - most likely yours is a simple threaded rod and if you loosen the nut it just unscrews. When you turn it CW it will snug up against a washer and the resistance of the neck, then the adjustment is no more than 1/4 turn at a time. If you tighten it too much it will strip but you need to work pretty hard to do that. Once you have met resistance tightening (CW) will remove relief, loosening will add it. A good rule of thumb is that you want somewhere between 0.004 and 0.010 inch of relief at the 6th fret - 10 thou is about the thickness of a business card.

 

With nut slots you want enough clearance at the first fret that you can tap the string over the fret and hear a little "ping". If you put a capo on the third fret you should still have just a hair of clearance at the first. I shoot for measured clearances of around 0.018 on the low string gradually going down to 0.014 on the high E.

 

Your action is much higher than I like it - 3/16 is 0.1875, I like something around 0.090 to 0.100. Martins specs is 3/32 (0.094) to 7/64 max (0.110). For the high E you are at 0.125 - I shoot for 0.070 when I do setups and Martins specs are 1/16 (0.063) to 5/64 (0.078). (Note that I measure with feeler gauges). I'm guessing from both your measurements and the age of the guitar that it might need a reset.

 

Your comment about playing a single string and having problems above the 12th fret kind of rules out the nut, eh? Most acoustic guitars have a hump or drop off at the neck to body joint (14) - that is sometimes a problem but very few players go up there. Normally if the guitar has buzzy frets in the upper part of the fretboard it needs less relief, if it buzzes in the first positions it needs more. That is why we adjust the relief before we do anything else - changing it can affect other adjustments.

 

I'm not sure what you mean about the frets - are they really high (jumbo, or maybe coming out of their slots?). If they are coming out of the slots they need to be pressed or hammered back in, possibly with a little CA to hold them down. Then they need to be leveled and crowned. Not normally a do it yourself operation.

 

A competent technician will measure ALL of these parameters before starting any work and will decide the course of action based on the complete measurements.

 

Back to DeepEnd - I try to discourage making a new nut if it isn't necessary. If possible I will use a premade blank which cuts some of the time. But if I have to start from scratch it takes two or three hours of fiddly work - go too deep with one slot and the nut is ruined. And I don't do it until I'm satisfied with the frets and the relief. So I quote two hours of work and hope it will cover things.

[DeepEnd]

. . . The action at 12th fret goes from bass' date='3/16 to 1/8 at treble side. . . . When you play single string, it is really bad above the 12th fret. . . .[/quote']

As Freeman pointed out, the action is about twice what it should be so that's not the cause of the buzzing. When you talk about buzzing above the 12th fret, do you mean that's where the buzzing takes place or there's buzzing if you try to fret a string at the 12th fret or above? That could be from 14th fret hump, as Freeman says, from a high fret, from a severely dried out top causing the fingerboard to become misshapen, or from a combination of factors.

[guit30]

Hi guys,

I really appreciate you going beyond the call of duty in giving me advice, the next time I look at it, I can check some things, I did make a big mistake, the action was 3/32-2/32 not 3/16-2/16, it was what it should be, or in the range. I thought the frets were too low, they were not very tall, now that is a preference of mine.You can get buzzing anywhere on the fretboard, it seems more pronounced above the 12th fret.

-Here is some info about the date of guitar http://www.guitar-list.com/ibanez/ac...rs/ibanez-pf25

[Freeman Keller]

Every time I work on a guitar I have a little ritual of taking a whole lot of measurements and writing them down. I made a spread sheet that has columns for "as found" and "as adjusted" as well as the target values that I'm shooting for - I give this to the owner so he/she can see what I've done and why. These are the things I measure (with the old strings and tuned to pitch)

 

- neck angle - the old yard stick on the fretboard pointing to the bridge trick

- relief, capo at 1 and hold the high and low E strings at the body joint (usually 14)

- nut slots - measured at first fret, usually just the high and low E unless I think there is something wrong

- action at 12 - high and low E

- height of the saddle out of the slot

- play each string at each fret all the way up the board - note where it buzzes

- check the gauge of the old strings with a micrometer - sometimes the owner doesn't know what's on it

- (if its an electric I check and write down the intonation)

- take the strings off, look at the condition of the frets, use my little rocker to check for high or low frets

 

I'll give the guitar a once over looking for any issues and if it seems dry I'll stick a couple of humidifiers in it and put it away for a couple of weeks. It only takes me about five minutes to do all of this and based on the numbers I have a pretty good idea what needs to be done.

[guit30]

Freeman, as usual, you are a wealth of knowledge,

Thanks

Jim

PS-will let you know outcome

[DeepEnd]

. . . the action was 3/32-2/32 not 3/16-2/16, it was what it should be, or in the range. . . . You can get buzzing anywhere on the fretboard, it seems more pronounced above the 12th fret.

-Here is some info about the date of guitar http://www.guitar-list.com/ibanez/ac...rs/ibanez-pf25

Again, why would there be three reviews of the guitar from 2011 if it hasn't been made since 1996 http://www.musiciansfriend.com/guitars/ibanez-pf25wc-pf-series-acoustic-guitar-with-case? I strongly suspect Guitar-List.com's information is out of date. What does the relief measure? A basic setup will probably do wonders. If you don't trust the guy, find another tech but don't be surprised if he tells you the same thing.

[guit30]

Why wouldn't there be any reference to this model on google,other than MF

ad?

[DeepEnd]

Why wouldn't there be any reference to this model on google,other than MF

ad?

Well, there's this: http://bluebookofguitarvalues.com/Acoustic_Guitar_Values/Manufacturers/IBANEZ/Categories/ACOUSTIC__PERFORMANCE_SERIES/Models/PF25_FIRST_VERSION?id=IBANEZ_ACOUSTIC_PERFORMANCE_SERIES_PF25_FIRST_VERSION

This might clear up the confusion:

 

PF25 FIRST VERSION - similar to PF10, except features herringbone body binding, oak back/sides, 14/20-fret rosewood fingerboard with pearl snowflake inlay, available in Natural finish, mfg. 1994-96. . . .

. . . PF25 SECOND VERSION

- dreadnought body, spruce top, mahogany back and sides, round soundhole with a three-ring rosette (5/9/5 grouping with a large pearl center ring), multi-ply body binding, mahogany neck, 14/20-fret bound rosewood fingerboard with pearl dot inlays, standard headstock with gold Ibanez and "PF" logo decals, three-per-side chrome tuners, tortoise pickguard, available in Natural high gloss finish, 25.5 in. scale, hardshell case included, mfg. summer 2009-2012.

I used Bing instead of Google and the above was on the fourth page of results. I'm reasonably sure the specific guitar in question is the second version, which would make it an '09 at the oldest. Compare it to the descriptions above and see what you think.

 

[guit30]

Deep End,

That looks like it, Now they are selling a PF15. Looks like a neat site

Thanks