Tube screamer before a tube preamp.

[WRGKMC]

I was messing around using some Tube screamer like pedals, a TS 9 and Marshall Blues Breaker placing them before one of those inexpensive

mic tube preamps. These Preamps are not high voltage type, they are the starved voltage type that run on a 9V adaptor so the pedals don't sound the same as they would

before an actual Tube guitar amp. However they do sound better than they would before a transistor amp or for use recording.

 

The only drawback is the preamp has either line level or Mic level inputs and a 20db cut switch. The input and output knobs are adjustable so you can kind of get a good instrument level. With the switch out, you get too much drive and with the switch in at line level its a little anemic. I Figured a 10db drop would be ideal so I'm likely going to modify the preamp for a 10db drop which should be just about right.

 

I can say the difference feeding my little 15W Valvestate Marshall sounded way better with the preamp in line once I got the gains set 1:1 vs the pedal direct. The pinch harmonics and overtones were much better with the preamp sounded more tube like then they did running direct.

 

I'm kind of glad because I've had these preamps around sitting on a shelf for a few years. The quality isn't really good enough for studio recording and have mainly kept them around for their phantom power when needed. I think if I get the impedance matched up they might be a substitute for running TS type pedals into a SS amp and getting something a little better then a wimpy low gain distortion, not that that's bad in some cases, but having that extra tube boost, starved or otherwise really does make a difference.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Just out of curiosity, which starved plate mic preamps are you using?

[WRGKMC]

Its just one of these cheap ART MP studio jobs. Its one of the earlier ones that doesn't have a meter and doesn't have limiting. http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-a...dio-mic-preamp They're only $39 new and you can buy them on EBay for $20 all day long. I think Behringer makes one that's similar as well as some other manufacturers.

 

I did use it again last night and again I enjoyed the compression and overtones I don't get plugged straight into a SS guitar amp.

 

What I'll likely do is set up a signal level meter, test the signal strength straight from the guitar, then do it again with the preamp and match and mark the gain levels on the preamp so its throughput is 1:1 in gain. Then I can place the drive pedals in front and not be worried about feeding a signal that's overly hot. You can jack the preamps input gain up too and get some super saturated lead tones if you wanted but I find having something 1:1 is more then enough for chords or leads.

 

If I get a chance this weekend, I'd post a short clip with and without the preamp. I'm hearing quite a bit of difference and practically none of that sterile tone you get using strictly SS.

 

I have done similar things placing a compressor after a TS to get some tube like effect. I even do that on my one effect board by having a TS just before my Comp. The Comp gives it some recoil and with the low gain of a TS its not overly noisy.

 

You can also use a comp before a TS to turn a TS into an distortion box, but using a preamp blows both of those methods away from what I'm hearing. I think with an amp you have the benefit of having its tone stack and EQing the tone as well. The preamp is fairly flat from 20~20K so you would need an EQ after the preamp for the kind of shaping you would dial up with an amp.

 

Who knows, somebody could probably make a mint making a little preamp like this, add a tone stack, dump the stuff needed for a mic and just set it up for instrument level. Then all those guys out there with Tube screamers running into other SS boxes can have a buffered tube stage on their effects board.

 

Heck, just take it a step farther and build a tube screamer into the same box before a tube preamp and place the 3 band tone stack after the tube. This would be like having a tube screamer before a normal tube amp. Then you can place your time based effects after it like you would have them in an amps effects loop. The SS guitar amp would basically be a clean power amp at that point.

 

It wont sound a good as a TS plugged straight into a tube amp running high plate voltages but what the heck. Its a big step up from running the pedal dry and sterile.

[Phil O'Keefe]

 

The only drawback is the preamp has either line level or Mic level inputs and a 20db cut switch. The input and output knobs are adjustable so you can kind of get a good instrument level. With the switch out, you get too much drive and with the switch in at line level its a little anemic. I Figured a 10db drop would be ideal so I'm likely going to modify the preamp for a 10db drop which should be just about right.

 

You could also possibly just put a clean boost set for 10dB or so of boost after the Tube Screamer - have you tried that? You'll still potentially have impedance mismatches though. Too bad the ART doesn't have a high impedance instrument input in addition to the mic and line inputs.

 

 

 

[ninjaaron]

I'm surprised to hear that this is working so well for you, but that's great that it is. Still, I expect a modeling thingy might get you closer, but maybe what you have going is the best you could hope for in this price-range. I've always found modeling gear comes into it's element when paired with a good analog OD like a TS. Some of the Sans-amp stuff (and clones) work similar wonders in a situation like yours, though not nearly as cheap unless you go the Behringer or Joyo route.

 

But I'm biased. I think it's preferable to go the SS route for everything because of the maintenance burden and the environmental impact, even if it is a sonic compromise, so I'm inclined to fool myself into thinking that SS sounds just as good. Me and Patrick Quilter.

[WRGKMC]

 

You could also possibly just put a clean boost set for 10dB or so of boost after the Tube Screamer - have you tried that? You'll still potentially have impedance mismatches though. Too bad the ART doesn't have a high impedance instrument input in addition to the mic and line inputs.

 

Well the pedal has a 20db boost/cut, and with its input/output gains you can target an instrument but it misses that sweet spot you'd get with an impedance match.

 

All I have to do is go in there, look at the resistor that cuts the gain, and replace it with a resistor of 1/2 the value and that should be about a 10db cut/boost which should make it good for instrument level.

 

The pots on the unit will easily handle hot vs vintage pickups and using a pedal before it will do the trick.

 

I do have A Blues Breaker pedal which has at least a 10db gain which I could use for your suggestion, but I don't think its going to sound the same as driving a tube directly with a TS pedal. Its no different then running a TS into a solid state preamp at that point. I did try the Blues Breaker set for preamp and you can easily saturate the preamp tube kicking up the tube preamp gain, kind of an overdrive type breakup which is different then the TS or BB alone.

 

I think the key is the pedals help get that tight saturated breakup from pushing the tube directly by including its coloration. Its something about the voltage it drives up on the tube. I may be thinking about the Dallas Treble Booster however.

 

I often use a TS in my pedal chain between other pedals and I think it sounds best when all the other pedals are true bypassed. I even made a dual looper so I could bypass all my other pedals while using it, but I still have an issue if I want to use chorus and echo pedals late in the chain.

 

If I can get this preamp to drive similar to how a tube amp's preamp drives, then sticking the two between any other pedals wont be an issue because I'd already be getting that saturated tone before hitting those other SS pedals. Plus the saturation will be before those time based pedals which always sounds better.

 

The only other viable option you have is to put your time based pedals in an effects loop after the guitar amps preamp which will work if your amp has an effects loop. Heads like my old Blackface Bassman don't have an effects loop so you wind up having to run them dry to get that juicy tone. My Music Man head is another. Its got a SS preamp that drives the power tubes so the TS really doesn't get those power tubes to saturate the same.

 

My Marshall Valve State has a Preamp tube but I don't think its High voltage. In essence its used in the drive circuit to get some driven tones. The Mosfets do come close to tube tone out of all SS amps I've used. Even my old Sunn Concert lead comes close to sounding tube like. They used a combination of Fets and transformer coils in the power amp to mimic tubes. The coils induction must add some kind of springiness to the signal because the string attack does feel tube like. Driving the head with pedals is very SS sounding otherwise. Good pedals sound good, cheap pedals sound cheap.