Members GigMan Posted August 17, 2012 Members Share Posted August 17, 2012 When I'm doing PA for outdoor shows - which do a bunch of in the summer time (the ones that don't get rained out! ), I run a Soundcraft MFXi8 as FOH mixer - small, simple, sounds clean - - does the job for my needs & the small groups I put together or freelance with. I play two keyboards into a Motion Sound KPS00s stereo kybd. amp - which has two XLR DI's on the back of it. I run mic. cables from those DI's outs on the back of the KP200S over to 2 mic. channels (panning stereo L/R) on the FOH mixer - this sounds great, gives a decent amount of signal & gain to work with. Not as much as a mic'ed up gtr. amp, of course - but it's ok, as a kybd. player I've spent my life trying to overcome loud gtr. amps Anyway, if there's extra vocalists on a gig or two gtr. plyrs. that both need amps mic'd up or something, I run out of mic. channels - there's only 8 mic. channels on the Soundcraft MFXi8 mixer & two stereo inputs, plus a stereo return. So I'll run the XLR DI outs from the back of the KP200S kybd. amp into the L/R inputs of one of the stereo channels - but there's HUGE signal loss, the gain is way too low. I use cables w/female XLR on one end and male TRS on the other to make these connections. I also have a small Yamaha MG82cx I could use as a sub mixer, which does seem to boost the signal if I use it as a submixer, to split keys betw. my kbyd. amp and the FOH mixer. Should I run the keys to it first and split it two ways in that fashion (one send to kybd. amp, other to FOH)? Should I run the keys to it first and split it two ways? It has L/R Monitor outs, which I could use to send stereo signal to the KP200S - and also the main L/R stereo outs, which I could use to send stereo signal to the FOH mixer. Or - Instead of using the sub mixer, should I just get a good DI box to take the signal out of the kbyd. amp and send it to the FOH mixer, skipping the Yam. MG82cx submixer altogether? The sub mixer gives me instant volume control at my fingers - as opposed to having to turn around and turn up my kybd. amp - adjusting its Main volume does NOT affect the amount of signal sent to the FOH... I'd have to use TRS/TRS male 1/4 cables to get the signal from the sub mixer into the stereo inputs on the FOH mixer. Should I use same cables to run signal from he sub mixer over to the kybd. amp? ...but having a DI instead of the submixer would also be one less piece of gear to plug in, electrically. Btw - I know the "stereo vs. mono" issue is a hot button topic as well - but I like running my keys in stereo & when I'm in charge of PA duty on a gig, I do - - so "stereo vs. mono - for live audio" is not the issue I want to discuss here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted August 17, 2012 CMS Author Share Posted August 17, 2012 Adjust the gain on the stereo input channel you're using on the mixer. Should be more than capable of driving the snot out of that signal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted August 17, 2012 Author Members Share Posted August 17, 2012 Adjust the gain on the stereo input channel you're using on the mixer. Should be more than capable of driving the snot out of that signal. Tried that, it's still low. Don't want to overdrive it & get distortion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members scharris_99 Posted August 17, 2012 Members Share Posted August 17, 2012 Unless I'm missing something here, you can't use a DI to feed a stereo line level input because a DI outputs at mic level. To keep it simple I would connect a submixer to the keyboard amp outputs to get a line level feed the FOH mixer. However, the levels on the submixer will definitely affect the FOH signal. I would get the amp volume you want, then adjust the submixer, then adjust the FOH mixer and then don't change anything. If you really want the ability to adjust levels on the fly without affecting the FOH you need the sub-mixer between the keyboard & amp and then probably use pre-fade aux to feed the FOH which leaves you the channel fader & main fader to adjust the amp volume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted August 17, 2012 Members Share Posted August 17, 2012 Your DI outs are mic level, the stereo inputs are line level. You have a disconnect between the two on the order of 40dB. If you MUST be stereo, they you have dug your own hole and must use additional tools (mixer) to get around that hole. How about a big enough mixer that you don't have to play these games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted August 19, 2012 CMS Author Share Posted August 19, 2012 Your DI outs are mic level, the stereo inputs are line level. You have a disconnect between the two on the order of 40dB. If you MUST be stereo, they you have dug your own hole and must use additional tools (mixer) to get around that hole. How about a big enough mixer that you don't have to play these games? I tried to find a spec online for that amp. I assumed the XLR outs would be line-level, the panel labeling is non-specific. It doesn't make a lot of sense to output mic level since the signal is post-everything according to the description. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Keyrick Posted August 20, 2012 Members Share Posted August 20, 2012 Bad info, sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted August 20, 2012 Members Share Posted August 20, 2012 From my experience with the product, the XLR outs will hit between -10 and -20dBu when driven very hard. They are not clear in the manual, it's referred to as hot mic level which it certainly would be. Why not a mic-line switch I ask...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted August 20, 2012 Author Members Share Posted August 20, 2012 Your DI outs are mic level, the stereo inputs are line level. You have a disconnect between the two on the order of 40dB. If you MUST be stereo, they you have dug your own hole and must use additional tools (mixer) to get around that hole. How about a big enough mixer that you don't have to play these games? ha - best advice so far... Yes, I think an A+H MixWiz3 16 channel is in my future... just couldn't swing it for this summer concert season (which is the majority of the time I need the extra channels), as my wife planned out this massive (and pricey) family vacation that had us flying to LA, renting a car & working our way up thru CA, OR & into WA - flying home to NJ from Seattle. Saw lots o' great stuff along the way but it was not cheap. So buying a MixWiz was not in my cards just now - it would've eaten into our air fare funds... So, I now get that the DI outs on the back of the Motion Sound KP200S kybd. amp are mic. level, looking to be run into a preamp to BOOST that signal - and when I ran from the DI outs right into a stereo channel, signal was NOT boosted due to the lack of preamp on that stereo channel - and therefore very low gain. But then for specific what purpose do they make these cables I got to make these connections: http://www.audiopile.net/products/Mic_Instr_Cables/MP_Adaptor_Cbls/MP-105/MP-105_cutsheet.shtml - - which have female XLR on one end and male TRS on the other... ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted August 20, 2012 Members Share Posted August 20, 2012 You probably passed right by my shop on your trip. Pity you didn't know this as you could have solved all of your problems (and caused a new one with your wife) if you stopped by for lunch and spent a few minutes "shopping" in the warehouse full of things that you just couldn't live without. Could have left with a MixWiz, or even a bigger console all packaged to fly home with you The cables that you got are specifcally for interfacing balanced TRS gear with balanced XLR gear of the line level variety. Mixing of levels is not what these cables are used for. Keep them, they may be hands in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted August 20, 2012 Author Members Share Posted August 20, 2012 You probably passed right by my shop on your trip. Pity you didn't know this as you could have solved all of your problems (and caused a new one with your wife) if you stopped by for lunch and spent a few minutes "shopping" in the warehouse full of things that you just couldn't live without. Could have left with a MixWiz, or even a bigger console all packaged to fly home with you Ha! - "Look honey, you dropped a wad on this trip - so I'm making a stop buy this used equipment I'll need for all the gigs I'll do that will help pay the VISA bills, when we get home." ...where is your shop, Andy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted August 20, 2012 Members Share Posted August 20, 2012 Ha! - "Look honey, you dropped a wad on this trip - so I'm making a stop buy this used equipment I'll need for all the gigs I'll do that will help pay the VISA bills, when we get home." ...where is your shop, Andy? In Davis, right off of I-80 near I-5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted August 20, 2012 CMS Author Share Posted August 20, 2012 Andy, one of these days I'm going to take the Great American Road Trip (Pack the Road King, point it west, and don't stop until I smell salt air). Your shop and then Mark's will be definite waypoints. I think I owe both of you a beer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted August 20, 2012 Members Share Posted August 20, 2012 Andy, one of these days I'm going to take the Great American Road Trip (Pack the Road King, point it west, and don't stop until I smell salt air). Your shop and then Mark's will be definite waypoints. I think I owe both of you a beer. Get together roadtrip? Could be fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bugzie Posted August 21, 2012 Members Share Posted August 21, 2012 Craig, That would be one hell of a ride! Wish I had the time to join you. Why am I picturing us strapping {censored} to a skid to get it back home? Andy, aren't you due to post a list of stuff you want to sell??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted August 21, 2012 CMS Author Share Posted August 21, 2012 Craig, That would be one hell of a ride! Wish I had the time to join you. Why am I picturing us strapping {censored} to a skid to get it back home? Andy, aren't you due to post a list of stuff you want to sell??? Hell, I wish I had the time as well. Then again, unfortunately, having the time would probably mean being "between" jobs, which infers that there'll be another job to go to, which in the present economy isn't a certainty. A you can see, I clearly can use some head-clearing time off. And yes, I'd no doubt be arranging shipping for the pallets of stuff heading east. Which is why employment AND time is essential for this type of voyage.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted August 21, 2012 Members Share Posted August 21, 2012 Craig, That would be one hell of a ride! Wish I had the time to join you. Why am I picturing us strapping {censored} to a skid to get it back home? Andy, aren't you due to post a list of stuff you want to sell??? I am in the process of cleaning up the shop post summer season, so yes I am definately due. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bugzie Posted August 26, 2012 Members Share Posted August 26, 2012 It seldom ceases to amaze me the equiptment that you've accumlated over the years. I can't even begin to imagine the experiences that you've had. Both good and bad. By the way, thanks. I did the biggest gig I've ever done yesterday and it went off without a hitch. Actually was great. Paid well and the delay I bought off you some years ago came in real handy. The crowd that showed was at least 1 and a 1/2 times as big as expected and a set of delay speakers helped immensly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted August 26, 2012 Members Share Posted August 26, 2012 It seldom ceases to amaze me the equiptment that you've accumlated over the years. I can't even begin to imagine the experiences that you've had. Both good and bad. By the way, thanks. I did the biggest gig I've ever done yesterday and it went off without a hitch. Actually was great. Paid well and the delay I bought off you some years ago came in real handy. The crowd that showed was at least 1 and a 1/2 times as big as expected and a set of delay speakers helped immensly! Excellent! It's always worth the pre-event effort when things go well at the event. Learning how stuff works, why it's done the way it is, and all pre-event planning is an investment that pays back at the show when time and resources are limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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