The soundman industry. How much should you charge, etc?

[PureSoundEnt]

Hi everyone,

 

I created this thread for everyone to discuss what is fair/appropriate for a soundman to charge for their services. Feel free to say whatever you feel in here (without breaking TOS of course).

 

I already know the correct answer, but maybe this thread will help others who don't know what to charge or who don't know what is fair, etc... I tend to stay away from these topics on the internet myself, but my other thread was quickly shifting towards this topic, so I created this new thread for people to discuss.

 

So here we have it. The soundman industry. Just like in every other industry, you will have people from all over the world, with different backgrounds, economies, levels of experience, types of gear, local "going rates", etc... and here is your perfect chance to discuss pricing or the industry as a whole.

[agedhorse]

 

I already know the correct answer,

 

 

And what would this "correct answer" be?

[PureSoundEnt]

 

And what would this "correct answer" be?

 

 

Okay, I'll start. I don't mind.

 

The correct answer is based on a myriad of factors. The most important being:

 

1. How much is the "going rate" in your area? What will your market bear?

2. What level of experience do you bring to the table? What is your reputation?

3. What kind of equipment are you using?

4. How well are you at operating your equipment?

5. What is expected of you at the gig? What equipment is needed for said gig?

 

Using the above to determine your price should mean that your price should fluctuate depending on the gig. There is no price that will fit everybody in every situation in every part of the world.

[W. M. Hellinger]

 

Okay, I'll start. I don't mind. The correct answer is based on a myriad of factors. The most important being: 1. How much is the "going rate" in your area? What will your market bear? 2. What level of experience do you bring to the table? What is your reputation? 3. What kind of equipment are you using? 4. How well are you at operating your equipment? 5. What is expected of you at the gig? What equipment is needed for said gig? Using the above to determine your price should mean that your price should fluctuate depending on the gig. There is no price that will fit everybody in every situation in every part of the world.

 

I'll suggest #1 would be: Is this intended to be a legit for profit business venture?

[agedhorse]

Ok, so where do the providers that you used fit into the equation?

 

Did they bring enough (or not enough) to the table that they justified their pay rate?

[MFlanagan]

I would modify this a bit and tell you that in this business and just about any other business - you can get 90% of the way to your price without any of those questions. The most important question (and interestingly one that never seems to be considered) is how much does it cost you to be in business? This includes ALL costs - hard and soft - that it takes to run your business. Once you know how much it TRULY costs to load up your equipment and do the gig - then and only then - can you start to figure what you want to charge.

 

Once I know how much it costs me to run my business for a month, I can then estimate the number of gigs I will do per month. Once I have that I can divide my costs by the number of gigs and this is what each gig needs to generate to cover my expenses. Now I can figure in my profit expectation. It may be a dollar figure per gig or it may be a percentage.

 

Now I can look at all the questions that PureSound listed. But the answer to those questions do not change my bottom line calculation from above. This is where many businesses set themselves up for failure. If I do the math above and find that my cost of doing business per gig is $500 and I decide that I need to make $250 per gig for my time (plug in whatever numbers make sense for your business) and the "going rate" in my area is $450 per gig then it makes no sense to say that "I can't charge more than $450 since that is what everyone else is charging". Either figure out how to demonstrate that you offer more value than the competition - or find a different business. You can't loose money on every gig but make up for it by doing a lot of them.

 

So while I find these types of threads interesting to hear what others in our industry are doing - I think posting actual compensation values is of little real value. It's fun to hear about a small provider generating higher than average revenues and useful to hear how they got there but it makes little difference on what each of us has to do to figure out what we need to make per gig in order to have a healthy growing business.

 

So like Dennis Miller used to say - "of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong."

 

I look forward to other's answers to this question.

[PureSoundEnt]

 

Ok, so where do the providers that you used fit into the equation? Did they bring enough (or not enough) to the table that they justified their pay rate?

 

 

Good question and for me the answer is simple. Since they could never meet my expectations, they didn't bring enough to the table to justify their pay rate. Sometimes it would be equipment that I specifically asked them to bring, they assured me they would bring it and then show up without it -OR- they would do other silly things like leave the mixing board the whole time I was performing... so when there was a problem or I needed them, they were no where to be found.

[PureSoundEnt]

 

So while I find these types of threads interesting to hear what others in our industry are doing - I think posting actual compensation values is of little real value.

 

 

I couldn't agree more.

[agedhorse]

 

Good question and for me the answer is simple. Since they could never meet my expectations, they didn't bring enough to the table to justify their pay rate. Sometimes it would be equipment that I specifically asked them to bring, they assured me they would bring it and then show up without it -OR- they would do other silly things like leave the mixing board the whole time I was performing... so when there was a problem or I needed them, they were no where to be found.

 

 

Do you think that if you were willing to pay more, you could have found somebody willing to perform as expected? (Promises that have no intention of being kept is another matter and one that typically befalls the chronic low priced leader, IMO that's something I really dislike).

[agedhorse]

This is really a vaibility analysis. It's a quick way to determine the suitability and potential of any industry. If the industry shows that it's not in general viable like this, there will be a lot of turnover, poor service delivered, and general dissatisfaction because there just aren't enough resources available for the price being charged (or demanded).

 

 

I would modify this a bit and tell you that in this business and just about any other business - you can get 90% of the way to your price without any of those questions. The most important question (and interestingly one that never seems to be considered) is how much does it cost you to be in business? This includes ALL costs - hard and soft - that it takes to run your business. Once you know how much it TRULY costs to load up your equipment and do the gig - then and only then - can you start to figure what you want to charge. Once I know how much it costs me to run my business for a month, I can then estimate the number of gigs I will do per month. Once I have that I can divide my costs by the number of gigs and this is what each gig needs to generate to cover my expenses. Now I can figure in my profit expectation. It may be a dollar figure per gig or it may be a percentage. Now I can look at all the questions that PureSound listed. But the answer to those questions do not change my bottom line calculation from above. This is where many businesses set themselves up for failure. If I do the math above and find that my cost of doing business per gig is $500 and I decide that I need to make $250 per gig for my time (plug in whatever numbers make sense for your business) and the "going rate" in my area is $450 per gig then it makes no sense to say that "I can't charge more than $450 since that is what everyone else is charging". Either figure out how to demonstrate that you offer more value than the competition - or find a different business. You can't loose money on every gig but make up for it by doing a lot of them. So while I find these types of threads interesting to hear what others in our industry are doing - I think posting actual compensation values is of little real value. It's fun to hear about a small provider generating higher than average revenues and useful to hear how they got there but it makes little difference on what each of us has to do to figure out what we need to make per gig in order to have a healthy growing business. So like Dennis Miller used to say - "of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong." I look forward to other's answers to this question.

 

[W. M. Hellinger]

 

Good question and for me the answer is simple. Since they could never meet my expectations, they didn't bring enough to the table to justify their pay rate. Sometimes it would be equipment that I specifically asked them to bring, they assured me they would bring it and then show up without it -OR- they would do other silly things like leave the mixing board the whole time I was performing... so when there was a problem or I needed them, they were no where to be found.

 

 

So they were in breech of contract... and forfeited their performance bond as well as not being paid, right?

[PureSoundEnt]

 

So they were in breech of contract... and forfeited their performance bond as well as not being paid, right?

 

 

Naw, I still paid them. They did still provide a service, even if it was a {censored}ty one. lol... I also told them what it was about their performance that I was unhappy about.

[agedhorse]

So, it looks like you are the only guy able to deliver something that will make you happy while willing to work for for the low price.

 

What this shows is the lack of viability with regard to your needs versus cost of service. You are in fact subsidizing your band to get the level of service that you desire. Nothing wrong with this as long as you and your band mates recognize your additional contribution above and beyond the industry expectations for this price at your level. Ie... you are underpaid but ok with it.

[heath_eld]

Far out... i dont think that much about this stuff.

 

I make A$220-350 a night doing PA and lights (just basic but respectable work). My regular band pays A$220 but rarely needs or wants lights, and helps load in and out. My other band pays $300-350 but wants basic lights and doesnt help at all.

 

From what i read around here, theres a huge range in what people earn. People with a brand name "sound company" probably start at $500 a night (for slightly better gear). There are also guys working for less than me. Going rate for a bar band (if theres any left!) is probably about $700 but most bars/pubs have PA. Can't see that being worth hiring sound guys for, so the only work is in the private party market.

 

I know for me earning the money i do its probably not really worth it. If i was desperate for cash i could get a shift at mcdonalds for about A$17 an hour which is minimum wage, and earn $204 for the time i put into a gig. When you factor in fuel plus costs of gear... its probably not really worth it. Could i charge more? Well yes, but i have no idea whether i'd lose the gigs. I suspect the bands would find they couldnt find anyone else reliable.

 

The better paying band owns a basic PA (pair of eons, 8 channel mixer and vocal mics) and would probably just use that for even more gigs.

 

So, i get up to $350, i know some get a bit more - then there's a big jump up to the "full pro" who owns pro brands (likely to be Nexo, Turbosound, Allen & Heath Ilive etc) and might charge more like $A2000+

[StratGuy22]

And what would this "correct answer" be?

 

It depends.

 

 

[agedhorse]

Ba-da-boom!

 

It depends.

[Musicman717]

Good question and for me the answer is simple. Since they could never meet my expectations, they didn't bring enough to the table to justify their pay rate. Sometimes it would be equipment that I specifically asked them to bring, they assured me they would bring it and then show up without it -OR- they would do other silly things like leave the mixing board the whole time I was performing... so when there was a problem or I needed them, they were no where to be found.

 

 

This is a big no - no to me. A soundman would have to be out of his mind to leave his booth without someone else there that knows about everything with him. when i do a event I am there at my booth while the event is gone from start to finish.

[StratGuy22]

Exactly. I'm on the job, from the first note to the last. I may not be at the board (mixing remotely) but I'm there, mixing etc. if the mix is working then I'll let it ride. I'm not a constant fiddler, but I do bump solos, vocals, just keeping an eye & ear on everything. I know without mixing, a sound tech might wander the room to see if theres any tweaks to be made, but it blows me away to see a sound guy drinking a beer with his buddy at the bar.

[Musicman717]

 

Exactly. I'm on the job, from the first note to the last. I may not be at the board (mixing remotely) but I'm there, mixing etc. if the mix is working then I'll let it ride. I'm not a constant fiddler, but I do bump solos, vocals, just keeping an eye & ear on everything. I know without mixing, a sound tech might wander the room to see if theres any tweaks to be made, but it blows me away to see a sound guy drinking a beer with his buddy at the bar.

 

yeah me too. the only time i have ever had to leave was at this years fair that i did , i had to have 2 p.a.'s in 2 different places , I went between the 2 of them a lot. and i gave my card that has my number to the people at both locations in case there was something that went wrong while i went to check on the other , and everything worked out great. and thats the only time that has happened. but other than that i am there with it , and i am a lot like you , i'm not a fiddler as well, unless i see a solo or vocal that needs turning up.

[StratGuy22]

For me, price will vary from $200 for the gig, up to $1300+/day. Various things affect price. How much rig, date, time, inside/outside, PITA. There can be extras included, that are billed, providing backline, and $100/hr overage fees, with a $300 minimum for things above & beyond anything agreed upon in the contract.

 

The overage fee was inspired by a church group who wanted to be added to the bill for a 2 day event. "oh we will play for free" they wanted to do a non-denominational church service, starting at 8am. They had no idea that we finished securing everything at 2:30am the night before. They contacted me and it wasn't my call to make. I couldn't add them any more than I could add an open mic in the morning, and charge performers $50/head to perform.

 

It was sprung on the organizer who had no clue either. So I didn't think it was fair to bill them for it, since he had nothing to do with it. Didn't really come to an agreement with the church group either. I ended up doing it, and it was a bit of a piss off for me. The only good thing about it was I was all set up and ready to go for the rest of the day.

 

But the $300 minimum breaks down as such.

 

$100 for being there an hour before curtain to get everything set up

$100 for the service

$100 for a 1 hour minimum after, again for my time.

 

So that's included in the planning for next year. Adding that in would have affected the bid price for the event. This way if the church comes with the request for something like that, they will know the costs involved. They tried pulling the same stunt at the big music festival that happens in the summer. I was helping out with the sound, and since I'm local, I became a bit of "the face" to take questions, requests.

 

My one good buddy asked about it, what were the chances of being added next year at 9am, Sunday. "they will play for free"

 

Again I said " by the time everything is secured and we roll out for the night its after 3am, closer to 3:30. They need at least an hour to set everything up. They would almost need a second crew, a morning crew, rested and ready to go. So the best answer I can give, is pretty much no.

 

 

His reply was "ohhhhhh yeah I didn't think about all that.

[Shaster]

It wasn't about being willing to pay more. It was about being able to pay more. A bar gig only pays so much. The budget I have to work with is going to determine who gets hired, including how many band members I bring. Sometimes I do a 3 piece band, 4 piece, 5 piece or 6 piece. It all depends on how much I can negotiate from the bar or club owner. But still, yes... if I was doing different kinds of gigs that paid more and I was able to pay a lot more, I'm sure I could have hired someone on a more pro level to do the job right. There are a few soundmen who can do it right on this level, but they "like myself" are usually booked up. One of them is Dale Christiansen. He's a member here and goes by the name "Sound 4 U." He also uses a StudioLive and is a very good soundman. .

 

Okay, I believe what I had wondered has been answered. Although I've never heard Dale's mix, I would assume from what I've read, that he would be on par with the techs that I would hire when I don't run my own sound. And of the twenty or so techs that I know, and many others I don't, I would expect and get good sound - but generally not for $200 including gear - again not impossible, but maybe unlikely. I believe most techs I know would want at least $200.00 +/- just for themselves - no loading, but of course it would depend. Maybe at an effortless afternoon jam they could charge much less.

 

Personally, if I'm in a band and they need the full meal deal PA - FOH (tops and subs), 16 channels with processing, four monitor mixes... then I charge between $150.00 and $250.00. That's not including my muso wage. If I'm not in the band then I want what I could make playing, plus what I would charge for my gear.

 

Of course if someone wants to rent my thirty year old M160's and my thirty year old Yorkville board, with two budget mics and stands, then we're looking at a fraction of the cost.

 

Many folks around here will rent a speakers on sticks PA from Long & Mcquade for $25.00 to $50.00 and I have to compete with that - or as is often the case, I just don't bother trying. For instance a basic vocals only PA at "the store", let's say one Soundcraft EFX8, two YX15P's, three SM58's, three mic stands, two speaker stands and all cabling, would rent for $44.00 before tax. Most folks own at least a mic and stand so they could deduct $18.00 making it $26.00. That's why I don't bother trying at that level.

 

I might be a bottom feeder, but I'm a bottom feeder with standards

[Unalaska]

What to charge? Well, I won't say. But I hope everyone on this forum charges more than they should. My business is too tied in with the bands I play in and it's market(s), so I won't say.

 

I will say Craigslist has a plethora of really underpriced and awful "sound guys" willing to bring out a powered mackie rig with 2 mixes for $100. Most of the labor is in driving their borrowed pickup truck to the gig 3 times, and in untangling all the cheap GC mic cables, and in trying to figure out why something doesn't work.

[PureSoundEnt]

 

You are in fact subsidizing your band to get the level of service that you desire. Nothing wrong with this as long as you and your band mates recognize your additional contribution above and beyond the industry expectations for this price at your level. Ie... you are underpaid but ok with it.

 

 

Yep, because the market where I am playing won't bear the cost of my actual worth... so I know that I am underpaid in regards to providing sound for my band, but I am so happy when I am on stage and I know we sound good and I can hear myself clearly. That, to me, is worth more than money.

 

The good thing about my sound business is that I do all types of gigs. So the range of pay that I recieve is different. Some gigs are pretty low, yet others are pretty high. It just depends on what the client wants/needs from me.

[RoadRanger]

The "real" companies hereabouts pay $25/hr with a 4 hour minimum. So if you're sound checking starting 2 hours before curtain and doing a 4 hour gig that should be $150. I'll do it for half that if it's a band I want to see for the first time and/or a venue I want to check out for the first time. Most I got was $325 for a "walk-in" I think (PITA wedding LOL). As my system fits in my car (and I have to haul my arse anyways ) and I could do most with $6k of stuff I suppose I should be getting another $120 for the equipment (2%?) and another 3 hours pay for loud-in/out so should be getting $345. If I had to haul a trailer more than a couple miles and needed a tow rig, needed a helper, or had a big $$$ rig that would have to be added in, maybe $500+ ? I think the going rate for bar gigs hereabouts is $250 . So that market is pretty much "hobbyists" with nice rigs or "ankle biters" with old/crap rigs. Here's an ankle biter ad on the local Craigslist :

 

"Gig not paying much ? Know that feeling. Why rent more than you need.

I come in with 8 channel, two tops , 1 sub and 4 monitors mic cables etc for 150$

Most gigs. Also can do just tops with 3 monitors for 100$ with tech to setup and run .

Let's face is most bands can't afford 175-250$ for sound and don't need to spend that."

 

Guess that doesn't include proof reading either

[StratGuy22]

I fill in for karaoke for a friend the odd time, when she's busy. Karaoke is a weekly Thursday Friday thing at 2 different venues, so it has to happen every week. If its one night, she sets everything up, basically tying into the mixer, couple wireless mics. Small mixer, power and speakers are installed at both venues. And I tear it down for her. I'm there to start at 9. Sometimes I start at 10 if it's quiet at 9. It ends at 1, but sometimes it dies off around 12:30, so I'd pack up then. 30 minute tear down maybe.

 

$150, a meal and a tab, which I usually have 1 or 2 beer over the whole time. Diet cokes in between. Receipt provided.

 

 

Same for a band. One has the same StudioLive mixer, so I bring my comp/router case, computer suitcase (monitor, keyboard, mouse, power cords) and iPad. Tie into their mixer and mix via iPad.

 

Same thing. $150, meal and even though I have a tab, I might have 1 between sets. And that's a maybe, more often than not, I don't.

 

Both are pretty minimal workwise, so it works for me. Receipt provided as well. When she first asked about it, she offered $120 cash. So I said how about make it $150, cheque and I'll give you a receipt. Then it's income for me, and an expense for you.