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EQing the room----------having some doubts as to the "Status Quo"


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As I've been taught (and perhaps it wasn't correct to start with) when eqing the system to a room, you pick a genre of music similar to the performing artist as a test-bed. The more I do this, the more I feel I'm wasting my time (to a point). Why use compressed recordings as a basis to establish critical EQ points within a room/system/etc.....? It seems to work as a start point but I still prefer to listen to the live dynamics rather than the recording to really hear what I need. I'm beginning to doubt how tuning the system to Steely Dan helps the sound of a different band. Anyone else find this to be an issue?

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it is not possible to eq a room. the best you can hope for is to eq your system to behave in a compromised manner within an environment to establish or maintain some preconceived expectation of said system in said environment.

when i have the luxury of time to listen to the room beforehand i fire up all manner of tunes, any genre i feel like but they are tunes i am deeply intimate with. i have a playlist i use to learn how a room behaves when i have the opportunity.

best you can do is listen, maybe use some software to listen with your eyes if you need to and try to tame a few runaway issues. you CANT "fix it", so stop thinking you can. you CAN compromise the issues to some degree, so do that. remember it all changes when the body bags show up. i tend to leave an empty room a lot mid heavy to a degree of harshness, and i never dial out anywhere near the amount of THUD (cardboard) i think i should because when the bags show up i have to undo a lot otherwise.

identify a couple issues, dial those down less than you think you need to, readjust when the bags show.

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Quote Originally Posted by Tomm Williams View Post
Why use compressed recordings as a basis to establish critical EQ points within a room/system/etc.....?
The idea is to use a point of reference: a source material that you're intimately familiar with.

There are a few albums, personal favourites, that I know inside and out. I know how they SHOULD sound so when I "tune" a PA, more or less I'm just trying to tame any resonances that occur. I'm not necessarily trying to change how the PA sounds in that room, just tame the problem areas so they don't run away when the volume comes up. With that said, my system EQ stays flat except for a couple -6dB filters if any.
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One HUGE problem with eq'ing the system using recorded music is that using a source like that without open mics is an open loop analysis that completely ignores the microphone's interaction with the acoustic environment including the speakers, which it completely unrelated to what you will be experiencing with a stage full of mics. When using mics, you now have a closed loop system that can be unstable (feedback) whereas you can not get feedback with an open loop system.

I see this kind of thing get folks into a whole lot of unexpected trouble.

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Quote Originally Posted by agedhorse View Post
One HUGE problem with eq'ing the system using recorded music is that using a source like that without open mics is an open loop analysis that completely ignores the microphone's interaction with the acoustic environment including the speakers, which it completely unrelated to what you will be experiencing with a stage full of mics. When using mics, you now have a closed loop system that can be unstable (feedback) whereas you can not get feedback with an open loop system.

I see this kind of thing get folks into a whole lot of unexpected trouble.
Dave Rat in high school biggrin.gif
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I actually gave it a go this weekend with the gig I had to do. I set up the EQ to sort of ring the room out and give me some headroom with the vocals. I was in a small environment (pictures in another topic) and I'm nowhere near a perfect or close to perfect sound engineer, but I was able to ring out the possible feedback issues without too much problem.

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Quote Originally Posted by agedhorse View Post
One HUGE problem with eq'ing the system using recorded music is that using a source like that without open mics is an open loop analysis that completely ignores the microphone's interaction with the acoustic environment including the speakers, which it completely unrelated to what you will be experiencing with a stage full of mics. When using mics, you now have a closed loop system that can be unstable (feedback) whereas you can not get feedback with an open loop system.

I see this kind of thing get folks into a whole lot of unexpected trouble.
Good point, but aren't we generally most worried about monitors for feedback? Since most monitors (assuming wedges) are really in a near-field situation, can't you basically get a solid setup on them and then leave it from venue to venue? How often do you have actual feedback between mics and mains, or are you referring to bleed from the mains into the mics that just changes the effective response?

I don't think I've touched the EQ settings on my monitor rack in ages.....but the mains get tweaked a good bit. Am I missing something?
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This is not just a feedback issue, actually feedback is the least on my concerns with FOH. I'm talking about tuning the system to adjust for any acoustic anomolies that cause for simply {censored}ty sound. Bass traps, hard surfaces, etc..... Really has little to do with ringing out the monitors.

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Quote Originally Posted by Tomm Williams

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This is not just a feedback issue, actually feedback is the least on my concerns with FOH. I'm talking about tuning the system to adjust for any acoustic anomolies that cause for simply {censored}ty sound. Bass traps, hard surfaces, etc..... Really has little to do with ringing out the monitors.

 

Use parametric EQ to get it right, and GEQ to tone shape. You should run your system outside with no boundries and run something like Smaart to get your system right. Unless you physically go out into the room and put up room treatments you are going to have to live with the room. Keep in mind when a room fills up everything changes. The human ear is an amazing tool to get things right as well.
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Quote Originally Posted by Tomm Williams View Post
I'm talking about tuning the system to adjust for any acoustic anomolies that cause for simply {censored}ty sound. Bass traps, hard surfaces, etc..... Really has little to do with ringing out the monitors.
You cannot correct for the effects of a bass trap with any equalizer. You also cannot do much about hard surfaces except to turn them down ( which is creating a "hole" effect) so you don't wanna do much.

Here's my approach to "EQing a room". First remove all objectionable peaks from the room. That is a job that can usually be done with eq. Human ears don't usually have many problems with dips in the response so I don't worry about them too much. Don't try to do too much and you'll usually end up much better as opposed to doing too much.

Now create a mix that works with what you have. Tone is great when you can get it, but if you can't you can still have a great show. It's certainly not the top item on my list.
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Quote Originally Posted by Pro Sound Guy

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Use parametric EQ to get it right, and GEQ to tone shape. You should run your system outside with no boundries and run something like Smaart to get your system right. Unless you physically go out into the room and put up room treatments you are going to have to live with the room. Keep in mind when a room fills up everything changes. The human ear is an amazing tool to get things right as well.

 

All good advice (most of which I do) but not the question I raise. In my reference to the Status Quo, I'm raising doubts as to the effectiveness of using recorded music as a tool to identify trouble frequencies/room issues, etc....... I'm pretty good at dealing with issues as I find them, I'm just not so sure if tuning to canned music has any value.
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Quote Originally Posted by SteinbergerHack View Post
Good point, but aren't we generally most worried about monitors for feedback? Since most monitors (assuming wedges) are really in a near-field situation, can't you basically get a solid setup on them and then leave it from venue to venue? How often do you have actual feedback between mics and mains, or are you referring to bleed from the mains into the mics that just changes the effective response?

I don't think I've touched the EQ settings on my monitor rack in ages.....but the mains get tweaked a good bit. Am I missing something?
Both feedback and off axis contribution of the mics from the mains, often at lower frequencies.

I find monitors can change depending on the acoustics of the stage area, the types of mics being used and how many acoustic instruments are being used.
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Quote Originally Posted by Tomm Williams

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All good advice (most of which I do) but not the question I raise. In my reference to the Status Quo, I'm raising doubts as to the effectiveness of using recorded music as a tool to identify trouble frequencies/room issues, etc....... I'm pretty good at dealing with issues as I find them, I'm just not so sure if tuning to canned music has any value.

 

My guess about the value of canned music might give you a general ideal of pattern coverage but all that will go out the door if the band's stage wash stomps all over the FOH system. I once ran across a band like that which ended up as loud roar of mush because of their ridiculous stage volume pretty much stomped all over the FOH system. Needless to say I haven't work with them ever since because their idiots.
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