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Here's the rig I'm running this weekend...advice requested


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Hello all. Long time no see. Haven't had enough gigs to worry too much about our PA, but I have one on Saturday and would like some advice.

I'm helping with a benefit for the second year in a row. It is outside. Fortunately the weather is supposed to be great.

The area we're covering for live music is a roughly 30-space parking lot. We'll have an elevated stage that is along one of the longer borders to the area, so our needed coverage pattern is approaching 180 degrees horizontally. Three bands are playing (mine and two others). All the bands are two guitars, bass and drums. We're using my band's drums and amps as back line for the others. I'll have a very experienced PA helper.

My gear includes:
StudioLive 16.0.2
1 JBL PRX sub
5 JBL PRX612Ms
2 Alto Professional TS112As
3 SM-58's for vox
2 Sennheiser 609's for guitar amps
1 Shure Beta 52A kick mic
1 SM-57 for snare
2 passive DI's for acoustic instruments
1 12-in/4-out snake

I did this gig last year with the same tech, and the PA worked great. We had plenty of volume with nothing clipping. At that time I only had the sub and the 5 PRX612s, so I used two 612's for mains and three 612's as monitors. I asked the tech if I should double up my sub, and he said he thought for this gig the sub worked well, but we could have used a broader dispersion from the tops. He suggested buying two more 612's before another sub. I bought the Alto Pros instead, and plan to put those to use as monitors while using either 3 or 4 612's out front.

As I plot this gig out I am thinking of having the sub centered, either 3 or 4 612s for FOH, the other 612's for monitors at the front of the stage (maybe augmented by one of the Alto Pros) and an Alto Pro as monitor for the drummer. If we run 4 612's for FOH I will have three monitor mixes...if we run three I could have a fourth monitor mix.

Here are my specific questions:
- Assuming we use four 612s for FOH, how much care must be taken to prevent two speakers on each side from fighting each other? Are they designed to be put tightly together side-by-side and not have their horizontal patterns overlap, or create a null spot between the two coverage patterns? Would it be smarter to have three 612's with one centered to the stage and the two on the edges turned out a little? I've considered that option so I can still have four monitors on stage without shortchanging FOH.
- Last year the stage was 4-5' high, so I tucked the sub under the stage, centered. This year they're bringing in a separate stage and I'm not sure it will be high enough to go that route. Is it still smart to center the sub?
- The PRX For Dummies method of use would be to send my Main signal to the sub and use it's crossover, then feed the L and R main tops from there. If I have enough AUX busses, should I AUX feed the sub instead?

Any other ideas are of course greatly appreciated.

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Yje 612's side by side angled according to the cabinet angles gives veruy minor comb filtering issues, angled out just a little bit more is better but for practical purposes it's not a big deal. The edges of the horn pattern are pretty uniform yielding reasonable combining of the acoustic signals. Of course, for the low frequency driver, like every other LF driver in every other point source cabinet regardless of price, there is plenty of overlapping and again, the uniformity of the off axis response as well as smooth polar reduction with increasing frequency make this (mostly) a non-issue with any quality speaker.

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Quote Originally Posted by Miko Man

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Can you aux feed the sub without an external cross-over to the tops? Wouldn't you lose the DSP advantages of the PRX internals? I don't know; is there something in the S/L 16.0.2 that would handle that? Mark C.

 

Yeah, the board will let me lowpass the sub and highpass the tops.
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Quote Originally Posted by Crowder

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Yeah, the board will let me lowpass the sub and highpass the tops.

 

What's the filter slope and alignment? I don't think you can do 4th order LR filters which is the minimum JBL recommends. The PRX use 8th order filters within it's DSP and I would choose that over aux fed subs using anything but a 4th or 8th order LR filter set.
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Quote Originally Posted by agedhorse

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What's the filter slope and alignment? I don't think you can do 4th order LR filters which is the minimum JBL recommends. The PRX use 8th order filters within it's DSP and I would choose that over aux fed subs using anything but a 4th or 8th order LR filter set.

 

Thanks, good advice. Better to keep it simple IMHO.
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Quote Originally Posted by jeff grocki

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Can high pass any of the out puts how are you using the board to low pass? I have 16.4.2 and don't see anywhere to low pass?

 

I may have spoken too soon, but can't you manage that through the Fat Channel settings? Either way it sounds as if letting the JBL hardware do what it's designed to do is a better choice.
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Quote Originally Posted by Crowder View Post
I may have spoken too soon, but can't you manage that through the Fat Channel settings? Either way it sounds as if letting the JBL hardware do what it's designed to do is a better choice.
No saying you cant just saying I don't know how. Just using the filters not the same as a crossover. I run my prx rig 4 xlf's 4 625's using the built in processing and am happy. I do trim the gain up on the subs about 1/4 more than the tops.

I always say do what works best for you.
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Quote Originally Posted by jeff grocki View Post
No saying you cant just saying I don't know how. Just using the filters not the same as a crossover. I run my prx rig 4 xlf's 4 625's using the built in processing and am happy. I do trim the gain up on the subs about 1/4 more than the tops.

I always say do what works best for you.
I have 16.0.2 and I don't think you can low pass. But even if you could I'd use the crossover built into the Xlfs - they work perfectly. I guess the only downside is not being able control the balance from the desk but I've never found this to be a problem if they are set up using the trim control on the xlfs during sound check.

I'd be inclined to think that one xlfs won't be enough for your tops (especially outside) but I guess it depends on the style of music and the sound you are after.

Good luck!
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Quote Originally Posted by Art Flood View Post
I have 16.0.2 and I don't think you can low pass. But even if you could I'd use the crossover built into the Xlfs - they work perfectly. I guess the only downside is not being able control the balance from the desk but I've never found this to be a problem if they are set up using the trim control on the xlfs during sound check.

I'd be inclined to think that one xlfs won't be enough for your tops (especially outside) but I guess it depends on the style of music and the sound you are after.

Good luck!
Thanks for the well-wishes. I hope no one's head will explode when I mention that I have the cheaper PRX sub, not the XLF. It handled this gig well last year, such that the PA tech said he'd go with more tops before more subs. We aren't doing dub step, just straight rock'n'roll, and we have a great bass rig. I'm definitely not expecting to rattle any windows. My system was built around the small clubs and parties we play. I'm pushing its capabilities to do anything outdoors, but it's for Habitat for Humanity and I really like to support their work.
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I got over to the site today after the stage was set, so I have tonight to think a little more about how I want to run this.

The stage is about 3' high, but it's positioned on high ground facing the gently sloping parking lot. Here's a view from down the lot that suggests the elevation change:
2012-11-30+16.37.07.jpg
2012-11-30+16.36.51.jpg

Another shot from behind the stage:
2012-11-30+16.36.10.jpg

Don't worry, we're moving the crappers first thing in the AM biggrin.gif

I'm going to set the board up on the end of the stage closest to the building. We have to be close the power pole behind the stage, and my stage snake is only about 25' long, so mixing from in front of the stage is impossible.

I am thinking of placing the FOH gear thusly:

- Single sub just off stage on the stage right side (close to mixing position)
- One PRX612M top on the sub
- At least one PRX612M on the far corner of the stage (stage left)
- A third PRX612M for FOH to be positioned according to advice received here
- Three monitors, one at each mic position across the stage front
- One monitor for the drummer

I have two main questions:

1. I'm trying to decide between keeping my tops at stage level or flying them higher via my tripods or a pole in the sub. Would appreciate any and all advice on this. The parking lot will be full of pop-up tents and people milling around, but as I walk the site I'm always looking UP toward the stage. Speakers sitting on the stage will definitely fire "over" the majority of the obstructions. I don't know if it makes sense to stick the tops up another 6 feet up. I don't know using a tripod at the far end of the stage (away from mix position) is worth the risk of someone tripping over it and wrecking stuff or hurting someone. We'll have good crowd control at the mix end of the stage but the other end will be a high-traffic area. If the consensus is that the tops should be higher I will figure out a way to do it safely.

2. Based on the width of the stage I have decided to use three monitors across the front versus two, which leaves me with 3 PRX612's for FOH. I am torn between "nesting" two together at one end of the stage or putting the third one in the middle of the stage on it's side (the same orientation as a monitor, but facing the audience). I wouldn't want one standing up on its end in the middle of the stage....I just think it would look goofy and distract from the bands.

Thoughts?

Thanks!

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The PRX 612m has dual pole cups; one is level, the other points the speaker "down" by 10 degrees or so. I think that I would put the FOH speakers up in the air, and the have them pointed down. That would get them up and over the nearby bodies, yet still directing their energy to the listening area. YMMV. Mark C.

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Thanks for the encouragement and advice. The gig went great, no big issues with the gear at all. It's amazing what you can do in 2012 with only enough gear to fill a minivan:
2012-12-01+08.21.54.jpg

Here's how everything looked when it was all rigged up:
2012-12-01+12.25.56.jpg

Notice that the monitor in the center of the stage is facing the crowd. I used two tops on poles at that one was for center-fill. Worked great, we got excellent coverage out front.

Not an ideal position to mix from, but we had easy access to the front of the stage:
2012-12-01+12.26.19.jpg

It doesn't take much:
2012-12-01+12.26.27.jpg

One thing I noticed today is that the Alto Pro's make better monitors than the JBL's because they kick back to a true 45*. The JBL's sit at about 30* and on a small stage you can't get far enough back from them to really hear what you're doing. I thought the Alto Pro's sounded really good as monitors.

Thanks again for the help.

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Quote Originally Posted by Crowder

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One thing I noticed today is that the Alto Pro's make better monitors than the JBL's because they kick back to a true 45*. The JBL's sit at about 30* and on a small stage you can't get far enough back from them to really hear what you're doing.

 

On smaller stages, an audio block (black 2x4) is the accepted tool for increasing the angle as needed. They will far exceed the Alto's performance IMO.
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The mixer has 31-band for the mains. We have a feedback eater that I ran on Aux 1 and Aux 2. The 31-band in the rack was on Aux 3, and Aux 4 (drummer's monitor) was running naked from necessity.

I never touched the 31-band all day. I think I know how it got set to such odd values. In a rush to get everything set up, that monitor got set up with the Mic/Line setting on "Mic." We wrestled with feedback from it (predictably) and spent some time making adjustments before checking the back of it and finding our mistake.

Long story short, it was some of A and some of B, but thankfully no C.

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I have never liked the fact that you can change the input sensitivity with a push of a button. Very easy to damage your hearing and or turn some heads if this button is tampered with during operation.

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Quote Originally Posted by jlb

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I have never liked the fact that you can change the input sensitivity with a push of a button. Very easy to damage your hearing and or turn some heads if this button is tampered with during operation.

 

Real pro gear has this kind of switch recessed to prevent accidental use.
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Quote Originally Posted by StratGuy22 View Post
Looks like the setup worked well. +1 on using the extra monitor as a center fill. Throw a Mac Mini, iPad & router into the setup and you could have remote mixed from the front.



Next year.


wink.gif
Quick question, with the Mac mini and iPad, do you need a monitor and keyboard/mouse as well? Or does the iPad take care of all of that?
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