Members BG Sound Works Posted December 30, 2012 Members Share Posted December 30, 2012 I'm looking for thoughts/recommendations on speaker limiters. I have a DRPA+ for my main but it only has two imputs, I want to be able to protect my monitor system. My thoughts are to run the monitor mixes through a compressor/limiter such as acp-88/acp-22/dbx 266/etc... using the limit function. The question is would there be any issues doing this. Amps have no DSP. I don't see how this would differ from the parameters on the limiters of the DRPA. Seems like it'd be fine, just set the threshold accordingly with proper gain structure and quick attack...basically the idea is to prevent blown drivers from someone screaming suddenly or unplugging. What do other people do in a similar setup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mogwix Posted December 30, 2012 Members Share Posted December 30, 2012 The limiters in those compressors usually aren't fast enough, IMO. Are your power amps properly matched to your speakers? If so, I wouldn't worry about it and let your amps' limiters take care of it. Most amps, even those without DSP, have limiters built-in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mogwix Posted December 30, 2012 Members Share Posted December 30, 2012 The limiters in those compressors usually aren't fast enough, IMO. Are your power amps properly matched to your speakers? If so, I wouldn't worry about it and let your amps' limiters take care of it. Most amps, even those without DSP, have limiters built-in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted December 30, 2012 Members Share Posted December 30, 2012 I don't know why the ultimate "speed" of limiters has much to do with it. Generally thermal speaker damage comes from long term issues. Peaks are usually far less of an issue. The best of all worlds IMO would be to size your amps to the peak rating of your speakers and then use external comp/limiters set to the average power handling level of your speakers (plus or minus) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted December 30, 2012 Members Share Posted December 30, 2012 I don't know why the ultimate "speed" of limiters has much to do with it. Generally thermal speaker damage comes from long term issues. Peaks are usually far less of an issue. The best of all worlds IMO would be to size your amps to the peak rating of your speakers and then use external comp/limiters set to the average power handling level of your speakers (plus or minus) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted December 30, 2012 Members Share Posted December 30, 2012 I don't know why the ultimate "speed" of limiters has much to do with it. Generally thermal speaker damage comes from long term issues. Peaks are usually far less of an issue. The best of all worlds IMO would be to size your amps to the peak rating of your speakers and then use external comp/limiters set to the average power handling level of your speakers (plus or minus) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted December 30, 2012 Members Share Posted December 30, 2012 I don't know why the ultimate "speed" of limiters has much to do with it. Generally thermal speaker damage comes from long term issues. Peaks are usually far less of an issue. The best of all worlds IMO would be to size your amps to the peak rating of your speakers and then use external comp/limiters set to the average power handling level of your speakers (plus or minus) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted December 30, 2012 Members Share Posted December 30, 2012 Properly sized amps with inboard limiting is probably your best bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted December 30, 2012 Members Share Posted December 30, 2012 Properly sized amps with inboard limiting is probably your best bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BG Sound Works Posted December 30, 2012 Author Members Share Posted December 30, 2012 Ok, thanks that is some good insight. I have a lower end monitor system for now, it is JRX 112's and QSC GX5's. I know the GX has limiters, but not sure whether or not to trust them. Aged, perhaps situations where I have seen monitors blow from keyboards unplugging or horror stories of multiples blowing up with an inexperienced band was because the amps where simply to powerful for the speakers than? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BG Sound Works Posted December 30, 2012 Author Members Share Posted December 30, 2012 Ok, thanks that is some good insight. I have a lower end monitor system for now, it is JRX 112's and QSC GX5's. I know the GX has limiters, but not sure whether or not to trust them. Aged, perhaps situations where I have seen monitors blow from keyboards unplugging or horror stories of multiples blowing up with an inexperienced band was because the amps where simply to powerful for the speakers than? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BG Sound Works Posted December 30, 2012 Author Members Share Posted December 30, 2012 Ok, thanks that is some good insight. I have a lower end monitor system for now, it is JRX 112's and QSC GX5's. I know the GX has limiters, but not sure whether or not to trust them. Aged, perhaps situations where I have seen monitors blow from keyboards unplugging or horror stories of multiples blowing up with an inexperienced band was because the amps where simply to powerful for the speakers than? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BG Sound Works Posted December 30, 2012 Author Members Share Posted December 30, 2012 Ok, thanks that is some good insight. I have a lower end monitor system for now, it is JRX 112's and QSC GX5's. I know the GX has limiters, but not sure whether or not to trust them. Aged, perhaps situations where I have seen monitors blow from keyboards unplugging or horror stories of multiples blowing up with an inexperienced band was because the amps where simply to powerful for the speakers than? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted December 30, 2012 Members Share Posted December 30, 2012 The gx5 is a little much for the jrx line, a gx3 would be a better match. I'd be worried a little if I saw the limiters on the gx5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted December 30, 2012 Members Share Posted December 30, 2012 Originally Posted by BG Sound Works I know the GX has limiters, but not sure whether or not to trust them. The limiters built into amplifiers are peak limiters and you can trust them to protect your amps from clipping. Trusting them to protect your speakers is a different thing completely. That's why external limiting is better as it can be better set to protect the speakers themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted December 30, 2012 Members Share Posted December 30, 2012 Originally Posted by BG Sound Works I know the GX has limiters, but not sure whether or not to trust them. The limiters built into amplifiers are peak limiters and you can trust them to protect your amps from clipping. Trusting them to protect your speakers is a different thing completely. That's why external limiting is better as it can be better set to protect the speakers themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mutha Goose Posted December 30, 2012 Members Share Posted December 30, 2012 Why are you pushing your monitors hard enough to need limiting on them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dookietwo Posted December 30, 2012 Members Share Posted December 30, 2012 Not sure where you can purchase these but they look like a good unit.http://www.slsloudspeakers.com/SLS%2...%20Circuit.htm Check out the videos. Dookietwo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted December 31, 2012 Members Share Posted December 31, 2012 Originally Posted by dboomer The best of all worlds IMO would be to size your amps to the peak rating of your speakers and then use external comp/limiters set to the average power handling level of your speakers (plus or minus) Note that the peak rating of a speaker is based on peak voltage. If you size your amp to a speaker, you need to convert the RMS to peak voltage (or use the program power (which has this conversion already in place) I do not recommend using the "program power" to size amps to, way too many optimistic speaker ratings out there to go by that. In general, somewhere around 1.5x the "RMS" rating (or 75% of the program rating) is probably a better choice for the typical user here on the forum. Certainly I wouldn't go even this high without a proper high pass filter in place for the speaker in question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted December 31, 2012 Members Share Posted December 31, 2012 Originally Posted by BG Sound Works Ok, thanks that is some good insight. I have a lower end monitor system for now, it is JRX 112's and QSC GX5's. I know the GX has limiters, but not sure whether or not to trust them. Aged, perhaps situations where I have seen monitors blow from keyboards unplugging or horror stories of multiples blowing up with an inexperienced band was because the amps where simply to powerful for the speakers than? The GX-3 would be a better choice for your monitors. The limiting in the GX series is great, but only if the amp is properly sized for your speakers. You need to limit the GX-5 down about 50% for your particular speakers to improve the chances of survival in an "unfavorable accidental event". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted December 31, 2012 Members Share Posted December 31, 2012 Originally Posted by agedhorse I do not recommend using the "program power" to size amps to, way too many optimistic speaker ratings out there to go by that. In general, somewhere around 1.5x the "RMS" rating (or 75% of the program rating) is probably a better choice for the typical user here on the forum. Manufacturers almost universally recommend using the program power rating when selecting power amps because it will allow for the best possible sound quality from their speakers. That said... You can't go giving guns to babies. I agree that most typical readers of forums like this are not "power users" and are still in learning mode. But I think it is important to at least point out what maximum potential looks like and what you need to master so that you can move in that direction. I believe the question deserves an educational answer.You may be able to drive a car to work just fine but would quickly be in trouble behind the wheel of an Indy car. Same here, but you might be interested to read about what makes it work the way it does.In any event what I'd recommend is self powered bi-amped systems and leave the engineering to experts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted December 31, 2012 Members Share Posted December 31, 2012 Originally Posted by dboomer Manufacturers almost universally recommend using the program power rating when selecting power amps because it will allow for the best possible sound quality from their speakers. That said... You can't go giving guns to babies. I agree that most typical readers of forums like this are not "power users" and are still in learning mode. But I think it is important to at least point out what maximum potential looks like and what you need to master so that you can move in that direction. I believe the question deserves an educational answer.You may be able to drive a car to work just fine but would quickly be in trouble behind the wheel of an Indy car. Same here, but you might be interested to read about what makes it work the way it does.In any event what I'd recommend is self powered bi-amped systems and leave the engineering to experts. Right, and if you look at many (if not most) powered speaker offerings, you will see that the manufacturers themselves do not power their boxes at "program power" even with all kinds of well implimented processing. Why? Because it's generally past the point of diminishing returns and the failure curve leads the performance curve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted December 31, 2012 Members Share Posted December 31, 2012 Originally Posted by agedhorse Right, and if you look at many (if not most) powered speaker offerings, you will see that the manufacturers themselves do not power their boxes at "program power" even with all kinds of well implimented processing. I don't agree. The best selling self-powered speakers do (QSC) so in terms of current numbers of speakers sold you would be incorrect.In any event it's pretty difficult to determine with the most current crop of self powered speakers as there are no non-powered systems to compare to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted December 31, 2012 Members Share Posted December 31, 2012 I was referring to the JBL PRX and VRX products specifically. I also do not think the K-12 driver would be rated at 250 watts (continuous) in today's market, but closer to 350 watts which falls well into the 1.5x pattern. Then, don't forget that there is a proper HPF as well as proper limiting and excursion control within the DSP, so even in a well protected speaker they are playing it "more safe". I do not know for sure, but suspect that the K-8 and K-10 have more agressive power limiting present, reducing the effective power delivered (a good thing with regards to reliability IMO) If being "more safe" with all the safeguards present is what the manufacturers do, this supports the do as they do not as they say (or suggest) position that I support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted December 31, 2012 Members Share Posted December 31, 2012 Well if highest performance is your goal then having an amplifier that can cleanly deliver the full peak power handling voltage of a speaker (or more) would be the goal. If you "size" your amps this way their built-in limiters will be effective peak limiters for the system and then adding some kind of limiter to limit the average power would be a very reasonable way to run a system. By recommending amplifiers with lower power you are trying to use their built-in limiters as averaging limiters, which is better than nothing but certainly not as good as it could be. As always, running at maximum performance levels required operating with maximum operating skills. As far as JBL PRX ... don't they use 1.4 ohm LF drivers in their powered systems? It's a 262f-1 woofer not a 2262 which has a bigger heatsink. If so again you don't have an apples to apples number to compare it to. I don't have much experience with the woofer. How big is the VC ... 2.5"? They supply 500W cont. (according to their spec) to the woofer and 500W to the tweeter (in a PRX612). So certainly the HF section has an amp that is more that what would be expected program power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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