Sometimes you just have to say "What The .....?"

[Vito Corleone]

Well, actually my band in the 80s didn't drink. At least not until after the gig. With this band the rules are different because the gigs are different. Set up, hang out for a few hours, eat dinner, hang out some more, and then go on and do a 2 hour set. Asking some of these people to not drink at all before the set simply isn't going to work. So realistically, the best we can do is just police it and try to make sure nobody has too much.

 

. Most of the time that works. Once in awhile it gets a bit out of hand, everyone promises to be better, and everyone is for awhile until the next time it isn't. It is what it is. If there was a magic bullet for the situation I'd have fired it long ago.

[trevcda]

...Some nights all you can do is click your heels together three time and repeat, "There's no place like one! There's no place like one!".

 

Thanks for sharing that.

[TIMKEYS]

There is a magic bullet ,, but you are not willing to pull the trigger. I can see that , but sooner or later you will end up having it bite you in the ass. Since you play one shot deals with weddings and events its easy to just keep kicking the can down the road , and I understand that and have done it myself. I have also pulled the trigger a few times in my life, not only with people below me in the corp structure but people above me. As a corp pilot and Capt. I was totally responsible for the people on the flights I flew. It can be quite difficult when the drunk is the owner of the airplane.

[Vito Corleone]

Oh for pete's sake. Seriously, Tim---you push me to never want to post anything remotely negative about my band because you insist on reading what you want into everything so much that trying to explain the reality just becomes maddening and frustrating.

 

Yes. You're right. I could fire everyone and end the band and that WOULD put an end to any problems, now wouldn't it?

 

Look----I've explained my band until I'm blue in the face to you, but I'll give it one last shot. This band has been together for over a decade. We've been through very few lineup changes during that time and nobody gets fired. Why? Because I went through all that stuff of searching for "better" players and people years ago. I'm done with that. This isn't my life's work anymore. This isn't my business. I don't "have" to do anything, so there's no reason to pull any triggers. This is about having fun playing music with people that I enjoy having fun with. Which is why we get along so well and why it has worked as well for as long as it has. Why we are able to consistently put on good shows and entertain people and make decent money in spite of whatever flaws the band may have.

 

It's why all your suppositions about the motivations and actions of people YOU'VE NEVER MET AND NEVER WORKED WITH have been completely off the mark time and again. Nobody is going to get fired here. As I said already, nobody's drinking issues are THAT bad or that consistent. It's not a firing offense. There's no ass to be bitten here.

 

I'm not firing good friends and good people and good musicians from a band we're all in for the fun of it because they have a glass of wine or two too many sometimes. There isn't a musician here who doesn't have a bad gig once in awhile or get frustrated with bandmates for one reason or another. That's just the name of the game. You pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and move on to the next one.

 

I guess it's my own fault for going into so much personal detail so many times here. I think of you people as my friends, but I really can't expect the true nature of things to be conveyed correctly over an internet forum. Much less so when there are people who actively and purposely try to see things the wrong way.

 

 

[TIMKEYS]

Dave ,,, as a band leader it is a real dick head thing to share too much internal problem stuff about people you consider your friends and bandmates. LIke you say every band has some issues, but I don't think too many band members expect to read about them here posted by the band leader on one of the the biggest music forum in the country. Its not very professional. We had a saying in aviation ,, all our pilots are good. While some of them were good for nothing its not anything you blasted all over the place. Its called professional courtesy.

[sventvkg]

Well if I drink more than one drink I know I'm not as good as I am Sober. For my keyboard player that's about four Drinks and every gig we do he drinks at least twice that amount!!! I think it depends on the person but most musicians I know are fine with one drink I sent break. However I will say I have fired musicians for drinking too much and performing {censored}ty consistently. I'd do it again. When we have a bad show it's because we go several weeks without performing and I personally don't listen to or play any of the tunes from the song list in that time and 99% of the time don't pick up my bass either! However if we have to learn specific songs for weddings I'll go over them a few times with the chart unless I have to sing them which takes a few hours of listening to the song and copping the phrasing, melody etcetc.. Anyway the point is if you go to long between gigs it will definitely also loose in a band.

[Vito Corleone]

The too long between gigs thing can be a problem for sure. If it's more than two weeks between shows, we always try to get together (at the least the guys) and run over anything that was rough at the last show or anything that anyone is having a problem with. We don't run the whole sets, but everyone is expected to go over their own parts as needed before the show. Everyone does for the most part. After the train wreck of the last show, we are scheduling a full band rehearsal where we will run over the full set just to make sure people haven't strayed too far from the arrangements. Songs and parts always change over time. That's fine as long everyone flows in the same direction.

 

As far as being a dick and sharing too much personal stuff here? Yeah maybe I do that and maybe I should stop. Pretty sure no one in my band reads this forum though. Pretty sure almost NOONE does anymore....

[GuitarCol]

Hi, new poster, longtime casual reader.... as someone who went through a period of scrutinizing live recordings, giving notes on same... everything mentioned is true... but I've also found that getting some distance on the night and listening back later helps give the right focus. When it's the next day, I can remember everything about how I felt.... later that's not the case... it can sound fresh, and you have a more 'normal' perspective. I guess the point is, right after you've played something is not the best time to judge it - you're too invested. This doesn't apply to things like getting lost in the song form of course, but the more subjective elements. I remember a story about a Dead gig (showing my age now) where Jerry threw Phil down the stairs he was so mad, and the tracks turned out to be so good they were the best and went on a live album.

[trevcda]

And to add to the example given (since redacted), despite whatever may have been happening on stage, add an audience that isn't singing in key very loudly and has almost no sense of rhythm to that mix and, well, we've all been there! As long as they were having a good time, you can get away with it. If I'm not or the band is not having a good time consistently, for whatever reason, something has to change.

 

In addition to being able to receive and offer advice, I'd like to think that this is someplace that I can vent and commiserate with people are in similar situations. I've been in my primary band for over twenty years. You go through a lot of ups and downs when you keep a working band together for that long. We have probably been through every typical band problem you can think of. At least two or three times. I've bitched and moaned about alcohol, band girlfriends, more alcohol, band girlfriends turned band wives (shudder), crappy pay, free gigs, and, oh yeah, alcohol. with the best of them. And I know a few of you know who I am. And those that don't often know what I'm talking about. If the guys I play with had any clue how close I've come to rage quitting over the years, they'd be shocked. The thing is, we're a good band and these guys are my friends. In one case my best friend. When we were earning mid-five figures, we all kept it together. Now we're playing for considerably less, but what some would consider pretty good pay these days. Now it has to be fun to be worth it. But I still get all bitchy, with sand in my you-know-what, because I don't feel we as a band are giving it out best effort... (seriously edited for time!) I'm rambling now...

 

To bring it back around to topic, to address the corporate pilot analogy; they are a quirky bunch ( I know a few), as are we. Well, welcome to the pilot's lounge. This should be someplace where we can vent or brag as needed, so others can learn from both our good and bad examples and we can get something off of our figurative chests that might otherwise fester into something that adversely affects real life. And if an FFA guy happens to be sitting in the corner; well we all know the risk posting here.

[Vito Corleone]

^^^Love this post. I could (and probably have) written everything you just did. I think you and I probably have a LOT in common, trevcda.

 

Just like with any endeavor in life, we all have to set our own limits for tolerances and acceptability. In the case of bands, I've been around this business long enough to know that it's ALWAYS something. Fire the offending members, or quit the band and find another one, or whatever....all you end up doing is jumping from one fire into another. Human beings come as such. Become a solo act and play to tracks if you can't deal with people's flaws.

 

So where do you draw the line? That's for each of us to decide. For me it's pretty simple:

 

A) as long as I'm having fun I see no reason to stop. Not every day or every gig is fun. Once in awhile we have one that isn't for whatever reason. 9 out of 10 of them are though. Those are still pretty good odds in my book.

 

B) as long as we're doing all the "other things" well enough that the audience and the clients aren't clued into the flaws, then the flaws can be worked with and around. No harm; no foul, ask the case may be. Isn't that how rock n roll has ALWAYS been performed to a certain degree?

 

As far as drinking goes---as long as it doesn't affect the reputation of the band, or the gig pay or a client's review, then all it is, really, is an issue that is between band members and, as such, will be dealt with in that manner. Nothing to fire anyone over until and unless it gets seriously out of hand. YMMV.

 

As far as the pilots in the corner go? Honestly, there isn't anything I've said here about anyone in my band that I haven't said to their face. They all know the scoop.

[TIMKEYS]

LOL ,, well for sure pro pilots are a quirky bunch. To be honest it is a lot like bands. Lots of competition, a good deal of stress. You change jobs a lot as you work your way up the ladder or end up sliding back down when the plane gets sold out from under you. You have to know how to get hired, know how to get fired and always be ready to get back on the ladder. Your best asset is having a good network of buddies who are in the biz to give you that leg up or that information that a better job is out there. One thing for sure ,,, I never ever worried about the FFA. The future farmers of American were never a threat. Now the FAA is another story lol. I think most guys have come home from a gig and said ,, man I think I am going to quit. I know I have done it a bunch, and I would imagine so have the rest of you. This summer I quit two damb good bands. One I was in for like 5 years and the other one I was with over a year. Sometimes that's what it takes. One should try to figure out a way to walk away and not burn the bridges with people you would be willing to work with in another band or lineup. Your success like flying depends on your network of peers. If it takes just blaming yourself or personal issues to get loose, its far better than really going for the juggler and getting angry even though that's where your head is at when you make the decision to pull chocks.

[TIMKEYS]

Dave I hear you on the don't say anything on here that you would not say to their face. The problem we face is that in this day and age of the net and serach engines is that ,,, civilians can in just a few stroked of the keyboard zone right in on a place like this,, if they decide they are going to check out your band or you personally . The internet is a great tool for bands,,, but it also can turn into a two edged sword when people start researching. How to deal with toxic band members...use a drone

[trevcda]

FFA?!!! LOL! Nice typo! For somebody so skilled on a fret board, I can sure fat-finger a keyboard to death. (insert facepalm here!)

[tshapiro]

In my thinking, a 'pro' player has the onstage awareness to monitor the crowd being compelled be the show vs the relative 'quality' of the performance. If you are surprised by positive post-show feedback than your audience awareness might need some tuning - that's assuming audience satisfaction was your primary objective. I find that non-musically trained and sloppy singers generally have a better feel for what's happening with the audience than some of the other polished and refined performers / musician - thats a generalization but it holds true for me. I also find that players that don't have a good feel for a room are often falsely sucked dry if they perceive that they are not being well received by an audience. Often then chill audience is the prelude to a night that's going to go nuts. And when it happens, some performers are very surprised at the turn around that seems to come out of nowhere. My point, if you are not happy with a performance it's likely during to lack of review by one or all of the band members - it's going to happen. A pro performer assesses what he's working with for the night and takes satisfaction in finding a way to please a crowd even when all cylinders aren't firing. I'm lucky that my band has a very high level of confidence. We take a lot of pride in pulling off great shows in light of the numerous unplanned junk that is dealt. We continually refine, but we have fun with each little show victory.

[Vito Corleone]

 

In my thinking, a 'pro' player has the onstage awareness to monitor the crowd being compelled be the show vs the relative 'quality' of the performance. If you are surprised by positive post-show feedback than your audience awareness might need some tuning - that's assuming audience satisfaction was your primary objective. I find that non-musically trained and sloppy singers generally have a better feel for what's happening with the audience than some of the other polished and refined performers / musician - thats a generalization but it holds true for me. I also find that players that don't have a good feel for a room are often falsely sucked dry if they perceive that they are not being well received by an audience. Often then chill audience is the prelude to a night that's going to go nuts. And when it happens, some performers are very surprised at the turn around that seems to come out of nowhere. My point, if you are not happy with a performance it's likely during to lack of review by one or all of the band members - it's going to happen. A pro performer assesses what he's working with for the night and takes satisfaction in finding a way to please a crowd even when all cylinders aren't firing. I'm lucky that my band has a very high level of confidence. We take a lot of pride in pulling off great shows in light of the numerous unplanned junk that is dealt. We continually refine, but we have fun with each little show victory.

 

 

Good observations and I feel the same way. I've always felt I've been pretty good at having a feel for what is happening with the audience and maybe that's because I'm NOT the best player that's going to take the stage. I've played with guys before who are clueless to what the crowd is doing and feeling. And, you're right...they are often superior musicians. I guess their heads are just in a different place. I never really thought about it that way before. Good take.

 

As far as this gig goes---it wasn't that I was SURPRISED that they liked the show---I KNOW that we know how to pull off a good performance for the crowd regardless...we've proven that to ourselves time and time again. And, like you, I'm proud of the fact that we are able to do that. It was more that I was somewhat disappointed that they did, if that makes any sense. Obviously, the stage performer and the businessman in me wants them to like the show regardless and I'm pleased that they did. But there's a part of me that almost wishes they didn't.

[trevcda]

I think you and I probably have a LOT in common, trevcda.

 

You're right, Guido. Perhaps a little too business minded for some and definitely hold myself, and things I'm involved with, to a higher standard. And if you ever need a bass player, I've got a place in Tahoe I can stay! Gimme a set list and a week.

 

As far as this gig goes---it wasn't that I was SURPRISED that they liked the show---I KNOW that we know how to pull off a good performance for the crowd regardless...we've proven that to ourselves time and time again. And, like you, I'm proud of the fact that we are able to do that. It was more that I was somewhat disappointed that they did, if that makes any sense. Obviously, the stage performer and the businessman in me wants them to like the show regardless and I'm pleased that they did. But there's a part of me that almost wishes they didn't.

 

Yep. Last night again. By all accounts we killed it. Well almost all. The first set was great. Everybody was doing exactly what they were supposed to do. I didn't have to worry what was going on behind me, I could interact with the crowd, dance and groove along, shucking and jiving with the one liners, etc. Took a break and set up a new mic position for a preplanned guest performer, did a couple of songs and brought up our guest. Got through the first couple of his songs and it's starting to slip. Fine. Some of these are new songs for us and his arrangements are all new and we're winging it. But underneath it all I hear the all too familiar missed chords, imaginary harmony parts (that are anything but) and uncertainty if someone is going to do the song correctly or skip a verse or end it early. And once again I'm left wondering how much better it could have been. How much better it should have been, really. Of course, the crowd loved it all. I guess "good enough" for some is just that.