Moderators Ratae Corieltauvorum Posted June 2, 2014 Moderators Share Posted June 2, 2014 Also, having just listened to Taurus again, I hear Beatles more than Stairway. All that apart, it is worth noting that millions never bought Taurus, and no disrespect to RC, I loved some Spirit, tho not all, I'll never be without a copy of Captain Copter, Taurus is a most unremarkable song, while Stairway is, well........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chordite Posted June 2, 2014 Members Share Posted June 2, 2014 They wouldn't even let you play this at a guitar shop ... Is this something about US guitar shops that I don't know. Like shop noodling is counted as a public performance or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1001gear Posted June 2, 2014 Members Share Posted June 2, 2014 SC, I've played both of those to two classical musicians. one a classical guitarist, the other a Moscow Conservatoire trained pianist. Both agree the section in question is entirely NOT unique, and has occurred in music going back to the every first stringed instruments, so even when Randy played it, he ripped it..........I think most musicians apart from people like Zapp, Vai and Satch would struggle to prove that the way they strung notes together was entirely unique and there composition alone I think most people who have heard and studied a lot of music would agree with this. The leveler is that according to CNN the legal requirement is simply, the average Joe thinks they sound alike. Then it's gonna be first come first served. Course the defense if allowed can just as easily present the next dozen examples of that progression/riff. Moral issues aside, I think Stairway is on another level of composition and distinguishes itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soundcreation Posted June 2, 2014 Members Share Posted June 2, 2014 SC, I've played both of those to two classical musicians. one a classical guitarist, the other a Moscow Conservatoire trained pianist. Both agree the section in question is entirely NOT unique, and has occurred in music going back to the every first stringed instruments, so even when Randy played it, he ripped it..........I think most musicians apart from people like Zapp, Vai and Satch would struggle to prove that the way they strung notes together was entirely unique and there composition alone Yeah but I don't think that's relevant. It's not up to what two classical guys think. It's what the estate can prove in front of a judge. It's not just about the music. As I said before...they don't just consider how identical the music is. They will consider the similarity AND the access to the music accused had before they wrote their tune. I'm sure that melody line has been done before. Again it probably won't matter. What will matter is the timing. Just on what I read.....a guy opened on a tour with a group then came up with a huge hit song a few years later that sounds remarkably similar to a song from the band they toured with prior. The courts will see that as too much of a coincidence. Again though...this will never reach that point. If it does I will be totally shocked. In a few months we are going to read that Zep's record company and the estate of Randy California have "settled out of court" and no details will be given. This means Zep will have conceded and agreed to purchase rights. A pay off with them maintaining control of the song and the illusion that they "won" because they don't have to give a writing credit. I really have no dog in this fight aside from a mild dislike of Page's history of doing this garbage. I certainly know next to nothing about Spirit but I think it's painfully obvious the song sounds the same. Yeah stairway is a much better song in my opinion and of course it changes at the end...but it's obvious where the core of the song came from....just like Dazed and Confused. But selling millions compared to the other isn't really the point. Or I guess it is to the plaintiffs.....but it isn't in terms of justifying whether or not Page lifted the idea to create what he did. Perhaps your classical friends actually know TOO much about music...to them everything will sound like something else....and they probably wouldn't be wrong in all the cases....lol.. Anyway...I hear what your saying.....but may I ask if perhaps a bit of Page hero worship is creeping in to your opinions on this matter? Certainly others have let that bias completely cloud their opinions.....I don't get that from you....but from some of the things you've written I think you do have a bit of romanticism towards that era and the accomplishments of the players that maybe extends a bit further? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soundcreation Posted June 2, 2014 Members Share Posted June 2, 2014 Is this something about US guitar shops that I don't know. Like shop noodling is counted as a public performance or something? I could be wrong, but think he meant it more as a joke re: Wayne's World and the "no stairway" thing. I thought it was a pretty good joke actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soundcreation Posted June 2, 2014 Members Share Posted June 2, 2014 Just found this...... But in an interview in Listenermagazine conducted shortly before his death, he (Randy California) griped, “I’d say it was a ripoff. And the guys made millions of bucks on it and never said ‘Thank you,’ never said, ‘Can we pay you some money for it?’ It’s kind of a sore point with me.” http://news.yahoo.com/did-led-zeppelin-steal-stairway-002446446--politics.html;_ylt=AwrSyCXAb4xT23kAMCrQtDMD I'd say that at least clarifies what RC thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chordite Posted June 2, 2014 Members Share Posted June 2, 2014 I could be wrong, but think he meant it more as a joke re: Wayne's World and the "no stairway" thing. I thought it was a pretty good joke actually. Aha! Thank you So I can go on testing strats with my favorite Doobies and Chic riffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soundcreation Posted June 2, 2014 Members Share Posted June 2, 2014 Aha! Thank you So I can go on testing strats with my favorite Doobies and Chic riffs. but of course! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Ratae Corieltauvorum Posted June 2, 2014 Moderators Share Posted June 2, 2014 Anyway...I hear what your saying.....but may I ask if perhaps a bit of Page hero worship is creeping in to your opinions on this matter? Certainly others have let that bias completely cloud their opinions.....I don't get that from you....but from some of the things you've written I think you do have a bit of romanticism towards that era and the accomplishments of the players that maybe extends a bit further? The last bit is close to the truth. I happen to know that Page is not a particularly approachable individual, I'm not the biggest Zep fan in the world, but what I do get is the way people like him and Blackmore, especially around London trekked from house to house listening to vinyls on Dansettes and stuff and picking up licks, riff, runs and so on, and then with youthful exuberance playing them back from memory. My son is 12 and he'll listen to summat on the radio or a TV jingle, 15mins later you'll hear him in his room picking the tune out, most likely completely unaware of what he's doing, and the strongest thing he's had that day is a coffee flavoured milkshake. These guys were often smashed out of their heads and these tunes they wrote and ripped were ear worms. I'm pretty sure that Page has met some of the blck Delta blues players and I'm pretty sure he'd acknowledge the influences. If you watch It Might Get Loud, watch the bit where he's playing Rumble - Link Wray on vinyl and playing air guitar and grinning like a big kid. These guys were/are artists, and they mixed the colours and brushed them the {censored} on, and then pushed it out there. Everybodies too {censored}ing precious these days cause theyt can chase the source of a Diminished Major Mixolydian J#7/8 that Hendrix pissed on a vitreous enamel bowl at 04:32 on Dec 28th 1971 at some hotel in Ottawa As I said before I hate {censored} that makes lawyers richer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gardo Posted June 2, 2014 Author Members Share Posted June 2, 2014 As I said before I hate **************** that makes lawyers richer. The real winners in every lawsuit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soundcreation Posted June 2, 2014 Members Share Posted June 2, 2014 The last bit is close to the truth. I happen to know that Page is not a particularly approachable individual, I'm not the biggest Zep fan in the world, but what I do get is the way people like him and Blackmore, especially around London trekked from house to house listening to vinyls on Dansettes and stuff and picking up licks, riff, runs and so on, and then with youthful exuberance playing them back from memory. My son is 12 and he'll listen to summat on the radio or a TV jingle, 15mins later you'll hear him in his room picking the tune out, most likely completely unaware of what he's doing, and the strongest thing he's had that day is a coffee flavoured milkshake. These guys were often smashed out of their heads and these tunes they wrote and ripped were ear worms. I'm pretty sure that Page has met some of the blck Delta blues players and I'm pretty sure he'd acknowledge the influences. If you watch It Might Get Loud, watch the bit where he's playing Rumble - Link Wray on vinyl and playing air guitar and grinning like a big kid. These guys were/are artists, and they mixed the colours and brushed them the **************** on, and then pushed it out there. Everybodies too ****************ing precious these days cause theyt can chase the source of a Diminished Major Mixolydian J#7/8 that Hendrix pissed on a vitreous enamel bowl at 04:32 on Dec 28th 1971 at some hotel in Ottawa As I said before I hate **************** that makes lawyers richer. I get it. It was a cool time. Me being of the slightly younger persuasion I find all the era's have their amazing moments....to me none more important than any of the others. But over the years I've for sure lost my ability to be "star struck" or put anyone anywhere on any kind of pedestal. This may sound completely arrogant but I honestly don't think writing music is any grand mystery. I think it's a study....like anything else. In fact what you said about page trekking from house to house listening to vinyls is not unlike my childhood with my friends. The more you study the better you get at it. None of that diminishes how cool great songs are.....It's just I don't ascribe anything "mystical" to the process like I might have in my younger years. Which in turn makes me see all these musicians as just people....sh..ting and stinking like everyone else. It also doesn't help that when I see some musicians (no one in particular) comment on things outside of music, especially when I disagree and know I'm right...lol....then it's hard to see them as anything important. They are just "good at their job". But yeah....in the end this is mostly about people trying to get or protect money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chordite Posted June 2, 2014 Members Share Posted June 2, 2014 About 30 years back I had a girlfriend in the PR business and gave her a demo cassette to put about. Around 2 months later I was watching TV and on comes a commercial...... with my {censored}ing track on it! Not incidental music but the main theme through the the ad from beginning to end. All I had as proof was the original 4 track master tape. which could, of course, have been recorded any time. So having someone steal my work and get well paid for it is something I can identify with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gardo Posted June 2, 2014 Author Members Share Posted June 2, 2014 I get it. It was a cool time. Me being of the slightly younger persuasion I find all the era's have their amazing moments....to me none more important than any of the others. But over the years I've for sure lost my ability to be "star struck" or put anyone anywhere on any kind of pedestal. This may sound completely arrogant but I honestly don't think writing music is any grand mystery. I think it's a study....like anything else. In fact what you said about page trekking from house to house listening to vinyls is not unlike my childhood with my friends. The more you study the better you get at it. None of that diminishes how cool great songs are.....It's just I don't ascribe anything "mystical" to the process like I might have in my younger years. Which in turn makes me see all these musicians as just people....sh..ting and stinking like everyone else. It also doesn't help that when I see some musicians (no one in particular) comment on things outside of music, especially when I disagree and know I'm right...lol....then it's hard to see them as anything important. They are just "good at their job". But yeah....in the end this is mostly about people trying to get or protect money. I think a person can study for a lifetime but if he hasn't got a certain natural born talent he will be just another mediocre song writer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JRicoC Posted June 2, 2014 Members Share Posted June 2, 2014 Sorry but theyre just not, get too competent guitrsists to sit side by side and play those pieces, same notes, same key, same temp in front of an audience, and they'll get called **************** for not playing the same piece and being out of key and time. Similar, yes, identical, not I'm not sure what was being conveyed here, particularly since something was bleeped, but I don't know what this has to do with the Spirit piece and Stairway. I was just talking about the original post ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soundcreation Posted June 3, 2014 Members Share Posted June 3, 2014 I think a person can study for a lifetime but if he hasn't got a certain natural born talent he will be just another mediocre song writer. I don't think that can be predicted. Pretty sure if someone studies (efficiently) and learns how to execute ideas for a lifetime...they will be better than mediocre......talent aside. If they aren't then they haven't studied properly. Now, I'm not saying some people aren't born with a better "ear"...of course there are. But it's just not that important in most cases. Talent is over rated. Without a work ethic to go with it...it won't mean anything. Someone with heaps of "talent" and a strong work ethic/desire to produce music is of course going to be a leader in their field....the Mozarts of the world...but even he could be just as much ascribed to nurture as nature. His dad was a professional composer after all and he was surrounded by music and the creation of music since birth. It's probably not too hard to write a symphony when you are 8 if you've been seeing it done since birth and having it taught to you not long after. At the other end there are countless wasted "talents" that never got the chance because of bad parents or missed opportunities or whatever. I really think "talent" is a very very small component in the make up of the vast majority of the people we all consider "great" musicians. I think what looks like "talent" is really just decades of hard work. Dissection of ideas, melodies, note/chord combinations etc...internalization of those dissections and learning how the pieces can fit back together to make something "new". regardless.....no matter where it comes from...it's not something I 'worship' in others... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gardo Posted June 3, 2014 Author Members Share Posted June 3, 2014 I'm not one for hero worship either,but when hard work and talent come together there is great potential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Ratae Corieltauvorum Posted June 4, 2014 Moderators Share Posted June 4, 2014 I'm not one for hero worship either,but when hard work and talent come together there is great potential. My wife would endorse this statement. I am very talented in a number of areas, but I'm a lazy fecker, she's a hard worker and is more highly qualified than me and earns more. Our children don't get an easy time:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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