MACKIE ONYX 400F (audio interface)

[macle]

Originally posted by MikeRivers Oh, and Calgary just likes to complain because his interface won't let him do what he wants and he's too pigheaded to ditch it and get something else

 

 

What won't it do?

 

How is Mackie in regard to support and updates?

 

I noticed there was a rep here on this thread in the beginning, which seemed promising as far as Mackie being on top of it.

 

Are they on top of it?

 

The 400f seems like an overall good unit for me, but the last thing I want is a disaster/nightmare. Been there done that.

[Music Calgary]

Some users refer to it as "a total disaster":
http://forums.mackie.com/scripts/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=27;t=000942

But I find that a tad on the optimistic side having gone through this with Mackie. Several of us 400F buyers are now on our 3rd and 4th exchange units. That's something I've never heard of for any product from any manufacturer in history. Have you? Mackie is providing faulty products on an unprecedented level.

The key thing to beware of is that Mackie continues to ship and sell the faulty units here many, many months after they became aware of the problem. According to my Mackie dealer what happens is that Mackie noticed a certain percentage of bad units stays out there, i.e. people who buy them are not using them very much and never notice things like the fact that the 400F hijacks the driver so no two audio apps can run at the same time, etc. Which is, of course, something you can easily do with any $20 soundblaster. So...

I spent a few thousand dollars on Mackie gear this year and have learned my lesson at this point. *Never* again.

Do yourself a HUGE favor and get the RME fireface. You won't regret it.

[macle]

Music Calgary, I appreciate your feedback, and I'm well aware of the many disasters, and I've seen your various posts.

I'm looking to hear the flipside, though, from others, especially in regard to Mackie's support.

I already got the 400f (but I can still return it if it proves to be a disaster).

So far, the only problem I had was in using it with Gigastudio, I found I had to disable the Echo PCI card I also have (the problem you're referring to I guess).

But other than that, it seems to be a pretty nice unit with good sound and 4 really good preamps.

So it doesn't seem like a disaster to me yet.

[Music Calgary]

Sounds to me like you haven't put it though the paces, there are a few different issues as you can see from Mackie's forum - but glad to hear you're happy...

The last 400F which died on me fried one of the firewire ports on my motherboard in the process. This was during routine usage as recommended by Mackie.

I'm looking to hear the flipside, though, from others, especially in regard to Mackie's support.

Flipside? You've read Mackie's forums. You've seen what existing owners are saying. There is no flipside... Mackie has let down 400F users in a big way. They are selling broken units everyday and only people like Mark who have some positioning in the industry are being taken care of when they purchase these faulty units. The rest of us are not being given any working software updates, no proposed release dates for such, and a few folks are now on their 4th exchange units because they keep getting sent faulty units. It's all documented in the Mackie forum as well as others. That's the flipside.

It's getting to the point that if I get a little extra time I may register a domain and set up a web site for unhappy 400F users worldwide to vent about Mackie. The only language Mackie understands is sales numbers so maybe if we start affecting that in some infinitesimal manner they may finally acquiesce and do some work.

[CactusArm]

I decided to take a chance on the 400f as my Firepod had a big problem and fried my motherboard; it's in for repairs! I got the 400f at guitar center with the understanding I'd be refunded immediately if I got one of the bad ones. Well, I got it home and started it up and it sounded great! really nice pres. They sounded a step above the Firepod pres to me... more depth. I don't hear them as being brittle or harsh in anyway. They had a nice clean and classic sound that is very livable. I hold my breath and turn on the 48v and NOOOOOOOOOO! I hear the dreaded whine! I can't believe the defective ones are still floating around.

I didn't have the chance to really use it too much to see how it worked on my powerbook G4. I have used an Echo Layla 24 for a long time and there are certain glitches with that unit on the powerbook that have troubled me for years; especially the MIDI that never works at all. I wanted to see if Echo got their act together to write the Mackie drivers... well, next time!

It did sound really really wonderful. Does anyone else think it might sound a step above the Firepod I've been using? There was a certian solidity to the sound of the Mackie that was very very nice. As it was noted throughout this thread how the 400f filled such a nice gap, and being that it has had some troubles, is there anything else that would take it's place in the sub $1,000 catagory of an interface with nice convertors and pres?

Will Mackie get it together on the 400f or will it just die away? They SHOULD have done a recall! It's amazing that the stores are still stocked with and selling the defecitve ones!

[Anderton]

BEFORE YOU SEND IT BACK read the important notice about how I got rid of FireWire whine with the Onyx Satellite. I assume you're using a Mac, right? In the case of the Satellite, it was NOT a Mackie problem, but a Mac problem -- try turning off Processor Nap and see what happens. It eliminated the whine completely for me.

[Boccaccio7070]

Calgary-
Now you are slamming my typing? what does being a succesful musician have to do with typing? I could use the true event that I had brain surgery in june and the head/eye/hand cordination is still a bit bobbly, but fact is, if i wanted to be a typist, i would have put in the time and excelled at it. who cares?
i'm just a hard working guy who happens to do music for a living. My brain tumor is terminal, but that's the cards i was dealt...i will write music til the end. No I/O box would get in my way either...if you dont like the 400F , sell it and get something you can live with. next.

Calgary, you seem to spend a lot of energy finding faults in Mackie, other on the forum, life in general. Maybe an attitude change would do you more good than any pair of golden converters.... just a thought. Gotta go, time to write a killer theme for a "who cares" fishing show on OLN...top of the world. Ma !!


Note: If you find any typo's please bring them to the attention of my 10th grade typing teacher, the very terse Mrs.Connie Vootu, at 315 687 9200.
but please, no profanity.

[Anderton]

>

FYI, one of the great hypes about FireWire is that you can hot plug. That's true most, but not all, of the time. M-Audio was the first company to bring this to widespread attention and for their efforts, got flamed for making "bad interfaces." The problem is not with the peripheral; for a variety of reasons hot-plugging is not compensated for at the computer itself, which can fry the motherboard.

More and more companies are including in their manuals that power should be off when connecting FireWire devices to a computer, and that's sound advice. In fact, I wrote a short article about this that first appeared in the free, biweelky HC Confidential newsletter and is now in the HC Library. Click here to read it.

[Music Calgary]

They SHOULD have done a recall! It's amazing that the stores are still stocked with and selling the defecitve ones!

Agreed.

Calgary- Now you are slamming my typing? what does being a succesful musician have to do with typing?

Absolutely nothing, as you have amply proven.

Calgary, you seem to spend a lot of energy finding faults in Mackie, other on the forum, life in general.

Life in general? Hmmm. Not sure how you reached such an incredibly inaccurate conclusion, but no one has ever heard me complain about life, least of all you. I recommend the decaf Mark. Mackie has let us down, big time. 2 yeas and still no working drivers... We don't all have the resources you do, and the facts are the facts.

2 years, still no working drivers, and no announcement of any. Just a broken, meaningless beta...

[Anderton]

Just out of curiosity...if you're using a Mac, have you turned off Processor Nap?

[Boccaccio7070]

Calgary-

I'm done with this thread, learned what i could from the likes of C.A. and other helpful folks.

As a point of departure, i'll say that I'm just quite puzzled as to why you spend so much energy on this site bashing mackie. Just sell it, take your loss, learn the hard lesson, buy another brand, and get on with the music already...or is this boiling down to an avoidance issue? As long as Mackie is your all consuming obstacle, you have an excuse, no?

i cant believe you hung on to something you hate for 2 years? thats just pathological, man. The damn thing doesn't even have a nice rack.

I know alot of guys in LA/NYC/Miami who spent more time complaining about what their gear wouldnt let them do, than the option of just accepting it, working around and thru it, or changing it, and getting on with what's really important; making music.

I think they all work at Guitar Centers now...

[Music Calgary]

Mark, I owe you no explanation of anything. Mackie sold me some gear which doesn't work, I hardly feel that's my bad. Cheers.

I know alot of guys in LA/NYC/Miami

I'm sure you do.

I don't know a thing about Guitar Center so I'm not qualified to opine, but to be honest you're not exactly the role model I'm looking for, so...

[the stranger]

Originally posted by Brittanylips Mic preamps, for example, are ridiculous, and should be eliminated from the face of the earth. The idea that there has to be a box between the device that converts sound waves into electrical signals, and the device that records those signals onto a format seems ridiculous to anyone who hasn’t been inculcated into this idiosyncrasy. We take them for granted – we cherish them – but ever try to explain why we spend so much money on these things to someone outside the field, and then watch their expression turn to one of disbelief and horror? -plb

For one, people outside the field aren't going to understand the need for quality pre-amplification. I'm sure they could grasp that different pre-amps impart different tonal qualities to a signal. I would hope that you also grasp the same concept, and I'm sure you do.

As for multiple stages? Why not? More choice is good. And another obvious point is that it does make a difference where in the chain you apply processing to a signal.

I can run a compressor on a signal before recording or after recording that signal. And the results won't be the same.

And being somebody with plenty of experience (which we know you have), you know that quality pre-amplification isn't exactly cheap. The trend towards outboard pre-amps is a response to the fact that a lot of gear follows a certain price point in design. And cost is always a factor. Most products have seen vast improvements in the quality of pre-amps
provided, but there is still a world of flavors to be had by being able to adjust this piece of the recording chain (which is one of the most important).

But, this is a good thing, IMO. It just adds more choices.

Most interfaces/etc have decent enough pre-amps to get the job done. But, why denounce the ability to have more colors to choose from?

Why does an artist use a variety of mediums and materials when he could just use the same tools over and over?

Why on earth would you expect somebody "outside of the field" to understand signal flow, anyway?

Originally posted by Brittanylips And the idea that mic preamps enhance the signal only adds to their ridiculousness. -plb

Idea??? Mic pre-amps do enhance the signal. Even the most transparent pre-amp is going to color the signal in it's own way.

Originally posted by Brittanylips If the process of recording includes capturing sound from the real world and then processing it in ways that are pleasing, why does the processing need to occur at more than one stage? -plb

Because audio production involves signal paths that go through many stages. ???

One track completely ITB goes through multiple stages before it leaves the box.
One track going through one channel on a console is going through multiple stages.

Hardware or software, the reality is that audio goes through many stages. And why not have a choice?

Inserts, busses, plug-ins, sends/returns
and all the other aspects of signal routing are part of the charm of signal recording.

It's gives choices.

And again, doing processing in multiple stages or multiple places in the signal chain is going to wield different results than applying all that processing at one point.

I think you are in the minority on this one. Mic pres are to an audio engineer what effects pedals are to a guitarist.
More flavors. More tonal choices.

Sure, some companies used some software voodoo and took all those boxes and cables and stuffed them "in the amp".

Does this produce the same result as that mess of cables and stompboxes?
No. But, it is what it is. Another flavor.

They did the same thing trying to emulate tube amps...trying to get the sound of a tube amp without all the hassles of tubes. Same thing you say you desire.
But the results (though admirable) still don't achieve the same thing.

I'd say the pre-amp is the most critical link in the signal chain. That's where all that hard work securing that great guitar tone with a clock radio and micing it up with a headphone driver mounted in a dixie cup is going to come together.

And I want choices on how I'm going to blend these wonderful analog voltages together!

"...eliminated from the face of the earth."

Pfftt.

B-Lips is like mad trolling me, dude.



I'm going over to the guitar forum and tell them you said they should banish stomp boxes from the earth.



Peace and Chicken grease,

d-lips

roger, over and out, 10-4, affirmative, i got a copy on that, your clear for takeoff, east bound and down...

[Boccaccio7070]

Brittany Lips-

I guess this whole question has become a generational thing. Sitting in Criteria's Studio B for the majority of every waking hour in 1981-1983 , I lived in a world of outboard boxes of every shape and size, doing a variety of tasks. The mother of invention was duly present at all times, and you quickly learned that signal path and combinations of modules provided a character unlike that of any console controls. You learned that electricity was flexible, moldable, and that mathematics could "curve the air" so to speak.

The Kids coming up today have a "studio" in their bedroom at the age of 14, and think that this will get them the same sound. Or is it, they don't even know what "that" sound is?

Most of todays recordings are near unlistenable because the old school recording source techniques have begun going the way of the dodo bird. And once it's in the box, baby, aint nothing gonna bring it back

I know every generation looks down at the younger one as if they were crazy, but your comments reveal such a lack of basic recording knowledge that I feel bad for you. Pick up a John Woram book (required reading at University of Miami school of music engineering) or if that's too dry for you, even Geoff Emerick's "Here there and everywhere; my life recording the Beatles" will at least open your mind to a world you seem convinced is nothing but a sham.

[Boccaccio7070]

Calgary

With every word, you reveal your ignorance.

I'm not Gay, but have some dear friends and a brother who are. My world is enriched with their talents, compassion and perceptions. Like i care which orifice they prefer? Do I care that you like ketchup on your porterhouse steak?
To (un)veil your bland bigotry behind a smile icon due to a simple wiring difference in the still-in-beta mode human brain is beyond my meager judgement or any enviromental bigotry I might possess. Come as you are, Calgary, come as you are. If you don't have a gay friend, it is obvious you have not grasped the concept of a full life.

And in terms of Role Models, I couldn't possibly be your role model. You just don't have it in you.
I scrambled from a busted home in a nowhere town of 2300 people and carved it out. No training. No money. Nothing but desire and a non-defeatist attitude. I didn't have time to bitch on a forum, as i was too busy learning, taking my lumps and moving forward.

Now go into your Mommy's basement and write some music already. Stop your petty whining. I've written 2 spots for OLN between your missives. 17 grand the better.
Is it art? No, it's a craft, but it enables me to take the rest of the month to work 24/7 on my "real" music, which is. (The spots are "The Huntley Way" and "Mountain West Football" opening themes...you can call the network in NYC to verify)
Did I mention the BMI residuals? Funny how it all adds up.

Hey, I'll sell you my old MOTU 1224 for a song.

Speaking of songs, What have you been up to?
It's apparent you are not a good enough writer to be trolling forums via the printed word. I would love to hear your music, or are you too busy writing about Mackie and making Gay smile icons.
Btw, my new 400F works quite well, sounds great, and with a few feedback driven changes to the Mac driver software, willl be a worthy second converter for a year or two to come.
Hey, Maybe write to Penthouse Forum.... they accept anything. You might even try writing a gay fantasy..... Are you man enough?

[Anderton]

>

I just spent an interesting evening at Paul Reed Smith's studio, which is basically a combination of analog and digital gear. He and Bill Plummer spent about two years just evaluating gear -- hardware, software, in the box, out of the box, etc. They didn't really have an agenda, so they just chose whatever worked best. Sometimes it wasn't clear-cut -- like they would prefer to store on digital, but then they had to check out a bunch of clocks, converters, and software to see if they could get digital to sound the way they wanted.

The bottom line is they played me some tracks that sounded just plain great. They combined the very best of old school and new school gear and techniques, and not surprisingly, the results sounded better than either by itself.

So yes, once it's in the box, nothing's going to bring it back. But it seems if you put some of those old school techniques in the box too, everything turns out okay

[Boccaccio7070]

Craig-

I completely agree....although i would love to see where the state of sound will be 50 years from now, after this digital newborn grows up and becomes mature, it's a wonderful time to be alive, on this cusp of tubes, binaries, wires , and code. I just wish the music scene wasn't in such a "lifestyle accessory" rut. History shoes us the period surrounding every turn of the century produces a downturn of the arts, with a rebirth that startles....so hey, Stravinsky started that nutty riot in Paris back in 1910 with his Firebird Suite, so maybe it won't be too long before the millenium doldrums get shaken once again...The underground London betting line on me achieving this is currently 3,456,945 to 1, but I'll lay the money down....

One of my favorite "new" techniques is to feed a female vocal thru a Groove Tubes GT67 ( not the best mic but sensible; just starting to re-explore vocal music) thru a Focusrite Liquid channel and then send it down the Apogee DA16X I/O pipe into a UAD Card running LA2A>Neve 1073>biased out Fairchild> EMT Plate 140 path (with a bit of Waves Doubler>Altiverb Putnum echo chamber around the edges, just for the hell of it.) And thats just my favorite this week
Its not Ocean Way, but i think I can almost see the whitecaps from here!


PS: I was reading an old KEYBOARD magazine from 17-18 years ago...kinda charming to see the world of midi and digital audi stumbling around in the languidly brightening gloom...happened to see an ad for your Ensoniq EPS library. Nice.

Speaking of KEYBOARD, just what the heck is goin on over there? the fonts are 50% larger, the page count has shrunk 40 % smaller, and with those useless side borders full of "Jargon" the count is really around 60%, the articles are poorly researched (no one knew Joe Zawinal's invert keyboard technique for the solo on "A remark you made"...the guy was KNOWN for that solo ... i wont even get into Steely Dan's keyboards) The general articles are (even for Keyboards somewhat slouchy prep reputation) balse', and I can never seem to find a review that isn't fueled by the Ad department knocking on the reviewer's door and yelling "Don't say anything bad, those guys at Roland are paying for the big party at Jim Aikens' this month!!"

I know this is not the forum, and as Editor at large, you're more Gonzo to begin with and not responsible, but they'll never print a letter from me, even as a reader of 30 years status ( I Used to own every issue till the Northridge Quake- still have issue 1 with Corea and a july 76 issue with Tony banks)
So i am using this connective space to ask you to shake the place up a bit ( or a lot) for the rest of us. I used to drive 35 miles to get that magazine back in the 70's...now i hardly make the effort to reach for it while sitting crosslegged at Barnes and Nobles, paging through SOS. At least tell them to cut the side margin crap. it worked for SPY magazine, but it's a frail facade for a magazine just treading water .

If I see a Key Buy award for a ringtone, I'll know it's the end. :

[MikeRivers]

Originally posted by Boccaccio7070 Speaking of KEYBOARD, just what the heck is goin on over there? the fonts are 50% larger

Some of us old folks appreciate bigger fonts. I wish Tape Op used a bigger font. But smaller fonts save trees.

[MikeRivers]

Originally posted by Anderton I just spent an interesting evening at Paul Reed Smith's studio

If I knew you were that close, I would have come over and let the two of you fight over who was going to buy me dinner.

[Boccaccio7070]

I vote for bigger fonts on virtual synths, i'll suffer the bifocals for the Zine's if they would do that

I sold my Mach 5 becuase i just couldnt SEE the damn thing.....great color scheme MOTU. who'de ya hire for that one?
those guys who made the here-and-gone fad of 3D books that suddenly "pop" ("Oh, look, it's a pony") after staring blanky at them for 5 minutes?

[Music Calgary]

I just spent an interesting evening at Paul Reed Smith's studio, which is basically a combination of analog and digital gear.

 

*Incredibly* cool.

 

 

The bottom line is they played me some tracks that sounded just plain great. They combined the very best of old school and new school gear and techniques, and not surprisingly, the results sounded better than either by itself.

 

Beyond cool!

[Brittanylips]

Originally posted by the stranger For one, people outside the field aren't going to understand the need for quality pre-amplification. I'm sure they could grasp that different pre-amps impart different tonal qualities to a signal. I would hope that you also grasp the same concept, and I'm sure you do. As for multiple stages? Why not? More choice is good. And another obvious point is that it does make a difference where in the chain you apply processing to a signal . I can run a compressor on a signal before recording or after recording that signal. And the results won't be the same. And being somebody with plenty of experience (which we know you have), you know that quality pre-amplification isn't exactly cheap. The trend towards outboard pre-amps is a response to the fact that a lot of gear follows a certain price point in design. And cost is always a factor. Most products have seen vast improvements in the quality of pre-amps provided, but there is still a world of flavors to be had by being able to adjust this piece of the recording chain (which is one of the most important). But, this is a good thing, IMO. It just adds more choices. Most interfaces/etc have decent enough pre-amps to get the job done. But, why denounce the ability to have more colors to choose from? Why does an artist use a variety of mediums and materials when he could just use the same tools over and over? Why on earth would you expect somebody "outside of the field" to understand signal flow, anyway?

Did I say those things… Damn. Now I have to defend them. Oh well.

Ok.

Let me put it like this. Let’s divide the world into two opposite, competing philosophies: the world as it is (e.g. The collected works of Henry Kissinger) vs. the world as it should be, but isn’t (e.g. The collected works of Condoleeza Rice). Henry vs. Condi. Goofus vs. Galant.

You are Henry and I am Condi.

Henry accepts the recording world full of multiple stages of amplification, each of which is a signal processor with no off switch, and much of which was originally designed for other purposes ranging from radio broadcasting to telecommunications, all cobbled together in a Frankensteinian collection of unruly components.

Condi posits a simpler more peaceful world in which audio enters the recording environment transparently, is processed and mixed once by the engineer, and returned neatly to the outside world for all to enjoy. (Yes, this doesn’t exist. Neither does democracy in the Middle East).

Did you ever see the movie “Brazil?” Great movie. It depicts a world, no less crazy than our own, but different. For example, there are enormous ducts everywhere, huge tubes snaking in and out of every room. To us, it looks ridiculous. But as an element of the sci-fi reality in “Brazil,” ducts are taken for granted.

We take mic preamps for granted. But they are no less ridiculous.

Say you want to record a singer. There’s the singer, then there’s an object in front of them that converts their singing, the waves of oxygen molecules emanating from their face, into it a format that may be stored and manipulated in a recording environment. As it stands, those waves must pass through two large objects (each of which are made up of a number of smaller objects, but I digress): mic and preamp. Why not three large objects: mic, preamp, and post-pre-amp? Why not seven objects…. What I’m saying is, as Condi, I envision a simpler chain in which all that is required is one object.

That the second object can color the sound in a nice way gives us the misguided impression that there’s something particular valuable about it. But Condi would say, "why not make this stage universally transparent and invisible to the user, and if you like that color so much, add it during the mixing stage when you are adding other colors?" Then Condi would insult your preamp as an effects box with no off switch and trot off to K Street for a snack.

As Henry, you embrace the world as it is and love your preamps no less than your mics. Truth be known, I live in Henry's world too (I suppose we all do) and one of my very favorite pieces of equipment is a preamp, which aside from being a great preamp is something of a work of art. But that doesn’t stop me from realizing that if someone who knows nothing about recording asks me why must I place a big box between the microphone and the line level input of my interface, any reason I give them, however much it makes sense to me, will not make sense to them. And they have a point.

Take phantom power, for example. We take it for granted in a way that we don’t take preamps for granted. But why should we? I used to live near an engineering friend of mine who collected vintage equipment, and would lend me things from time to time. These would often come with their own, weird, ancient, proprietary power supplies. That’s no longer the case and subsequently we don’t covet power supplies. They've become invisible, transparent, no big deal.

Higher resolution digital formats that can deal with the dynamics of real life have also simplified the chain in terms of making compression on the way in less standard. So that’s one less stage of redundant processing, eliminated by technological progress. If you want to compress, great, but do it downstream. What theoretical advantage exists to applying compression on individual tracks at multiple stages?

So as Condi, I’m thinking of the actual trip sound must make from the real world to the recording world and back out to the real world and envisioning it as straight as possible. Bring the sounds in as transparently as possible passing through as few boxes as possible, and then apply whatever effects you like but do it no more than once. Then, having colored and mixed the sound to your heart's content, return it to the real world so other people can hear it too.

So yes, we live in Henry’s world, but at some point, hopefully, we’ll live in Condi’s.

P.S. since this thread is immortal, it will continue to exist long after mic preamps have gone the way of the bustle.

-peaceloveandbrittanylips

[Brittanylips]

Originally posted by Boccaccio7070 I know every generation looks down at the younger one as if they were crazy, but your comments reveal such a lack of basic recording knowledge that I feel bad for you. Pick up a John Woram book (required reading at University of Miami school of music engineering) or if that's too dry for you, even Geoff Emerick's "Here there and everywhere; my life recording the Beatles" will at least open your mind to a world you seem convinced is nothing but a sham.

 

I appreciate your sympathy. You are right in suggesting that what I know could fill a thimble. However, I am not rejecting recording methods of the past or present, just positing the future. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

My own view is that this is very much a transition period between analog and digital, and is suffering from the fact that it is a transition period. Eventually, things will work themselves out, and a simpler digital future will surpass the analog past in both quality and ease of use. Until then, I’m not ready to put my D.W. Fearn on eBay.

 

Incidentally, I understand that the University of Miami also offers an excellent course in surfing. No reading required.

 

-peaceloveandbrittanylips

[Boccaccio7070]

man, the only tan i got was a studio tan. At that school, they live by night, the ones with talent anyway

[Music Calgary]

If I was Condi I'd pull some strings in Washington and get Mackie to release a working driver for the 400F.