Members Tom Lang Posted October 5, 2009 Members Share Posted October 5, 2009 Originally Posted by Chumly In a live setting, is there any real-world audible net benefit to this unit over the VL4? I'd encourage you to check it out for yourself but in the meantime, I'll tell you a few things about what I like about it. Yup, I'm biased but I gig lots and VoiceLive 2 makes my vocals stand out and makes the band sound better as a result.Individual effect access - I can turn what I want on and off within presets when I want. I'm always trying new things.HardTune - I use it one or two songs a night but it grabs attentionHarmonies - They're great and they're predictable. The VL4 will react to the same chord differently at different times and that's offputting for me. Also I can switch to, and set key and scale mode in any preset from a standing position when I want that sound.Megaphone - it's a modern effect and used wisely is greatGlobal Tone button - I'm set at the defaults and the overall sheen and slight compression sounds pro with only the effort of pushing the button and letting it do its work.Tap tempo for delay.I could go on but I hope this helps you make your decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jon Chappell Posted October 5, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 5, 2009 Welcome, Tom! Tom is both a gigging musician and the guy from TC Helicon, so you can ask him any questions pertaining to the VoiceLive 2's features or design right here in this forum. And if you missed it, check out post #8 for a link to Tom's demo videos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tom Lang Posted October 5, 2009 Members Share Posted October 5, 2009 I think it may be cool to let users know how I use VoiceLive 2 in performance. I'll periodically post with interesting observations and tips in the upcoming weeks. First, my setup. The VoiceLive 2 is on the left side of my micstand and my 24" guitar pedalboard is on my right. I run VoiceLive 2 with my left foot. Sometimes I have to dance and I'm fine with that! I have about 7 favorite presets I've edited and moved to presets 1-7. The first 3 are exactly the same except they have 1up, 1down, and 1up+1dn. These cover 90% of my harmony needs. I've intensified the µMod effect in my presets to make a giant flange which I use sparingly. The echo is slap-ish and on at all times and the reverb I use only for ballads. Changing to reverb for ballads is a nice sonic treat for the dancers/audience. And the reverb in VoiceLive 2 is very nice of course ... Tone is on at the default settings. Sometimes, if the pa is lacking in low end, I'll add warmth. If it's a good pa/monitors, I'll turn warmth off. My presets have the harmonies turned off and the delay turned on so I can switch around to find what I want while singing/playing. My vocal sounds the same even as I switch presets. When I need the harmony, I'll switch it on and off. My other presets are the attention-grabbers. One has Hardtune assigned to the FX pedal for modern takes on classic songs but only for a single verse or chorus section. We're not trying to be Kanye/Black Eyed Peas! I also use a Tone Drone preset as a cool vocoder effect during a rap by our drummer. For reggae songs the tap tempo with lots of delay level and feedback makes for a more authentic sound. Megaphone I use a lot for individual phrases ("all that glitters is gold") but you have to be careful and reduce the Transducer level a bit if your monitors are loud and the mains are near. More later. Any comments from VoiceLive 2 users out there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chumly Posted October 6, 2009 Members Share Posted October 6, 2009 Thank you gentleman! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chet Muse Posted October 7, 2009 Members Share Posted October 7, 2009 Originally Posted by Tom Lang I think it may be cool to let users know how I use VoiceLive 2 in performance. I'll periodically post with interesting observations and tips in the upcoming weeks. First, my setup. The VoiceLive 2 is on the left side of my micstand and my 24" guitar pedalboard is on my right. I run VoiceLive 2 with my left foot. Sometimes I have to dance and I'm fine with that! I have about 7 favorite presets I've edited and moved to presets 1-7. The first 3 are exactly the same except they have 1up, 1down, and 1up+1dn. These cover 90% of my harmony needs. I've intensified the µMod effect in my presets to make a giant flange which I use sparingly. The echo is slap-ish and on at all times and the reverb I use only for ballads. Changing to reverb for ballads is a nice sonic treat for the dancers/audience. And the reverb in VoiceLive 2 is very nice of course ...Tone is on at the default settings. Sometimes, if the pa is lacking in low end, I'll add warmth. If it's a good pa/monitors, I'll turn warmth off. My presets have the harmonies turned off and the delay turned on so I can switch around to find what I want while singing/playing. My vocal sounds the same even as I switch presets. When I need the harmony, I'll switch it on and off. My other presets are the attention-grabbers. One has Hardtune assigned to the FX pedal for modern takes on classic songs but only for a single verse or chorus section. We're not trying to be Kanye/Black Eyed Peas! I also use a Tone Drone preset as a cool vocoder effect during a rap by our drummer. For reggae songs the tap tempo with lots of delay level and feedback makes for a more authentic sound. Megaphone I use a lot for individual phrases ("all that glitters is gold") but you have to be careful and reduce the Transducer level a bit if your monitors are loud and the mains are near.More later. Any comments from VoiceLive 2 users out there? thanks Tom.What is "hard tune"? Is is exactly like auto-tune with the same sound/effect but just with a different name?Also, I need to use the "telephone" sound (the Beatles Come Together, Dave Edmunds I Hear You Knocking etc.). Can I get that by editing the "megaphone" effect you mention? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tom Lang Posted October 7, 2009 Members Share Posted October 7, 2009 >>>What is "hard tune"? Is is exactly like auto-tune with the same sound/effect but just with a different name? HardTune is our name for the A...Tune effect. It's like that effect with an update that will track your guitar chords so you don't have to set key if you're in a hurry. You can also back off on the tune speed so it becomes a more transparent pitch corrector. If you want to get crazy, HardTune also has octave shifting. >>>Also, I need to use the "telephone" sound (the Beatles Come Together, Dave Edmunds I Hear You Knocking etc.). Can I get that by editing the "megaphone" effect you mention? Yup, that's the one. There are already pre-programmed Transducer styles in VoiceLive 2 so you don't have to edit if you don't want to. Of course, you can dig right in with the distortion and band limiting parameters if you really want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dug dog Posted October 8, 2009 Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 I'm currently playing with a band in which I sing but don't play guitar and no one in the band is providing back up vox. That means that I'd need to route one of the guitar players through the VL2. Obviously, that guitar player is going to be concerned about the effect on his signal/tone. Is there some way that you could compare the sound of a guitar run through the VL2 into an amp with the sound of the same guitar directly into the amp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JimC Posted October 12, 2009 Members Share Posted October 12, 2009 Great to find this voice live 2 forum...I'm curious about something on my new voice live 2...you know how there's no such thing as a dumb question? I play lead and sing lead mostly...do I need to tell the unit what key/scale I'm using all the time? I see Tom mentions he has a few presets that cover 90% of his needs. How does this work? I'm often not playing chords with thirds in them....do I need to alter my playing style accordingly? As well, when I use the 'guitar thru' connection there is often a little 'wierdness' coming out of my amp for the first couple of notes/chords that I play. What is going on there? Thanks again, from the begining of the long learning curve, JimC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jon Chappell Posted October 13, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 13, 2009 Originally Posted by dug dog I'm currently playing with a band in which I sing but don't play guitar and no one in the band is providing back up vox. That means that I'd need to route one of the guitar players through the VL2. Obviously, that guitar player is going to be concerned about the effect on his signal/tone. You could split the line so that the guitar follows two paths: one goes through the guitarist's effects and amp as normal; the other goes to the VoiceLive 2 (but doesn't come out). You'd need a simple splitter box for this. This would have no effect on the tone. Is there some way that you could compare the sound of a guitar run through the VL2 into an amp with the sound of the same guitar directly into the amp? The VoiceLive 2 has a "Thru" jack in the back that simply passes the guitar signal through the box. Even though the unit offers guitar effects, you don't have to use them. You can bypass them. You are running the guitar signal through an extra box, but the effect would be minimal. If your guitarist is hypersensitive to this, he can always listen to the two scenarios (going direct through his gear vs. going first through the VoiceLive 2) to make sure there's no perceived effect on the sound.But my vote would be to split the signal at the beginning of the chain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dug dog Posted October 13, 2009 Members Share Posted October 13, 2009 Originally Posted by Jon Chappell You could split the line so that the guitar follows two paths: one goes through the guitarist's effects and amp as normal; the other goes to the VoiceLive 2 (but doesn't come out). Thanks for the feedback. I must say I'm a bit embarassed that I didn't think of that fairly obvious solution. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jon Chappell Posted October 13, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 13, 2009 Originally Posted by dug dog Thanks for the feedback. I must say I'm a bit embarassed that I didn't think of that fairly obvious solution. It's a good question, actually. Many guitarists are aware that they can split their guitar's output signal with no compromise to the tone, but some aren't. And probably most singers who don't dabble in guitar gear aren't aware that you can do this.Since introducing a vocal harmonizer into a band may often come at the singer's urging, a little discussion of the possibilities are in order.The VoiceLive 2 can create harmonies from a pre-defined scale (where no instrument input is required), from the audio of a guitar (where a guitar input is required, but it could be one leg of a split signal), or from a MIDI input (either guitar or keyboard). You can also drive the harmonies from an auxiliary source, like the output of an mp3 player, but you're less likely to find this in a band situation. But it does create another use for buying karaoke tracks online! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jersey Jack Posted October 14, 2009 Members Share Posted October 14, 2009 It's great to see this review, as I've been looking at the VoiceLive2 for some time now! I have a few questions, however, that haven't yet been clarified in the ongoing review: 1. How does one deal with harmonica sounds? I understand that I can simply turn off the harmonizer when I take out the harp, but I'm thinking about tone. Does blowing the harp through the vocal mic mess up the auto-engineered tone? If (as I assume) the VoiceLive2 readjusts the tone settings to optimize the harp, it may well take some time to readjust back to my voice when I start singing again. Would I be able to play a song that alternates vocal and harp lines? 2. Does the guitar effects include a tuner? (The Harmony-G does, and it's a useful feature.) 3. Does the modulation in the guitar effects produce a useful chorus sound? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jon Chappell Posted October 15, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 15, 2009 Originally Posted by Jersey Jack It's great to see this review, as I've been looking at the VoiceLive2 for some time now! I have a few questions, however, that haven't yet been clarified in the ongoing review:1. How does one deal with harmonica sounds? I understand that I can simply turn off the harmonizer when I take out the harp, but I'm thinking about tone. Does blowing the harp through the vocal mic mess up the auto-engineered tone? If (as I assume) the VoiceLive2 readjusts the tone settings to optimize the harp, it may well take some time to readjust back to my voice when I start singing again. Would I be able to play a song that alternates vocal and harp lines?2. Does the guitar effects include a tuner? (The Harmony-G does, and it's a useful feature.)3. Does the modulation in the guitar effects produce a useful chorus sound? Question 1: The automatic mic gain works only when you press and hold the reverb switch to activate it. After you get your vocal level set, you don't need to reactivate it for the harmonica. The harmonica just "uses" the vocal setting (as it would be in the real world). As for the adaptive functions--Tone, EQ, Compression, and Gate--all of them can be turned off once your vocal sound is set. It requires four separate knob turns, so it's a bit of a hassle. And these functions are global, meaning they can't be saved as a preset. So I'm not sure that turning them off is practical. But my experience is that the adaptive techniques work quickly and transparently, though I've never tried alternating with a harmonica. I have alternated, in quick succession, with my wife, whose voice is obviously very different from mine. And neither of us can hear the unit "working." Perhaps Tom has some insight here.Questions 2 and 3: yes and yes. The Guitar FX section offers 24 different modulation effects (independent from the reverb), including such chorus or chorus-like effects as Micromod Clone, Micromod Wider, Thicken, Light Chorus, Medium Chorus, Wide Chorus, Mono Chorus, and Fast Rotor. Then it has several flanger effects. Judging the effects are a matter of taste, but I find them musical and useful, even though the only editable parameter is a level control. So if tweaking the chorus is important for your guitar sound, you may want to consider an outboard effect. The tuner works well and as expected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chumly Posted October 17, 2009 Members Share Posted October 17, 2009 Originally Posted by Jon Chappell It's a good question, actually. Many guitarists are aware that they can split their guitar's output signal with no compromise to the tone, but some aren't. And probably most singers who don't dabble in guitar gear aren't aware that you can do this.Since introducing a vocal harmonizer into a band my often come at the singer's urging, a little discussion of the possibilities are in order.The VoiceLive 2 can create harmonies from a pre-defined scale (where no instrument input is required), from the audio of a guitar (where a guitar input is required, but it could be one leg of a split signal), or from a MIDI input (either guitar or keyboard). You can also drive the harmonies from an auxiliary source, like the output of an mp3 player, but you're less likely to find this in a band situation. But it does create another use for buying karaoke tracks online! This driving of "the harmonies from an auxiliary source, like the output of an mp3 player, but you're less likely to find this in a band situation. But it does create another use for buying karaoke tracks online!" I assume you mean an independent soloed vocal track guide and not that the unit can extract the relevant harmony data from a fully mixed ensemble source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jon Chappell Posted October 17, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 17, 2009 Originally Posted by Chumly I assume you mean an independent soloed vocal track guide and not that the unit can extract the relevant harmony data from a fully mixed ensemble source. No, I mean that the unit can derive the harmony from the fully mixed ensemble.From page 29 in the manual:Singing To Music PlaybackVoiceLive 2 can derive musical information from fully mixed music tracks. For this alternative you’ll need: Music source device.This could be an MP3 player, computer, CD player etc. Recorded music without vocals.This could be your latest CD tracks minus your vocals or Karaoke tracks available on the web Connect as described for MP3 Player (AUX input) in the Quick Start section. When you power up VoiceLive 2, it will auto-recognize the AUX input as the harmony music source. Choose a harmony preset and play your music source. You should hear your music, voice and the harmonies in your PA system or headphones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chumly Posted October 18, 2009 Members Share Posted October 18, 2009 Originally Posted by Jon Chappell No, I mean that the unit can derive the harmony from the fully mixed ensemble. That's intriguing and AFAICT way beyond the abilities of the Digitech VL4 in this regard, yes?Have you tried it in this mode and if so how well does it discern the underlying key and the apropos harmony interval as compared to a chordal guitar input only? What do you figure it's "listening" to, the bass line and/or chordal parts?Would it work on just bass and drums?What would it do if there was no pitched portion in the middle of the tune from which to discern a reference? Would it get "confused" trying to discern a key and harmony interval from the drums alone?What if you do not want to hear the bass/drums/keys through the VoiceLive 2, but only the voice and the harmonies because the bass/drums/keys are already fed directly to the PA?Obliged and interested! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tom Lang Posted October 19, 2009 Members Share Posted October 19, 2009 Originally Posted by dug dog I'm currently playing with a band in which I sing but don't play guitar and no one in the band is providing back up vox. That means that I'd need to route one of the guitar players through the VL2. Obviously, that guitar player is going to be concerned about the effect on his signal/tone.Is there some way that you could compare the sound of a guitar run through the VL2 into an amp with the sound of the same guitar directly into the amp? This is a great method. If your guitarist is concerned about his tone (and that's a good thing) you guys can do a quick test by connecting the guitar directly to his pedalboard/amp first, having a listen then inserting VoiceLive 2 in the chain. You might have to switch the ground - that's why the switch is there - but the tone should be unaffected. My signal chain is guitar > VoiceLive 2 > Cry Baby, etc. etc. > Line 6 Echo Park > Fender 65 Deluxe reissue (non-vibrato channel). Nice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tom Lang Posted October 19, 2009 Members Share Posted October 19, 2009 Originally Posted by JimC I play lead and sing lead mostly...do I need to tell the unit what key/scale I'm using all the time? I see Tom mentions he has a few presets that cover 90% of his needs. How does this work? I'm often not playing chords with thirds in them....do I need to alter my playing style accordingly?As well, when I use the 'guitar thru' connection there is often a little 'wierdness' coming out of my amp for the first couple of notes/chords that I play. What is going on there? JimC If you're playing chords without thirds, then chord recognition's not the way to go. You must be playing hard rock/metal music (right?). It's not that VoiceLive 2 ignores the chords you're playing when no 3rd is present, we're still trying to make sense of what you're playing and offering what we think you'd like. When harmonizing on a song chorus, my chords typically contain thirds. For some songs I use the same presets but I kick in the key/scale I want because this type of harmony works well on some songs. Scale mode also allows your guitar playing to wander into fills/riffs/basslines when you're harmonizing. Re: Wierdness for the first few chords. Please use the VoiceSupport application to update to the latest version. This should fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tom Lang Posted October 19, 2009 Members Share Posted October 19, 2009 Originally Posted by Jersey Jack 1. How does one deal with harmonica sounds? I understand that I can simply turn off the harmonizer when I take out the harp, but I'm thinking about tone. Does blowing the harp through the vocal mic mess up the auto-engineered tone? If (as I assume) the VoiceLive2 readjusts the tone settings to optimize the harp, it may well take some time to readjust back to my voice when I start singing again. Would I be able to play a song that alternates vocal and harp lines?2. Does the guitar effects include a tuner? (The Harmony-G does, and it's a useful feature.)3. Does the modulation in the guitar effects produce a useful chorus sound? Re Q1: Harmonica! Yeah! How cool you want to get some effects on your harp. The distortion/megaphone effects would be totally cool. Tone is engineered for vocals, plain and simple. It would probably make your harmonica quite bright. The compression would likely be welcome though. You can edit the Tone feature so it's not automatic if you prefer - there's a 3 band EQ that you could tweak to optimize both your harp and singing voice I believe.Re Q2: Yes, there is a tunerRe Q3: Yes, there is a nice chorus in there. There are some other modulation effects that you might like to try as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chumly Posted October 19, 2009 Members Share Posted October 19, 2009 Hi Tom, are you able/willing to address my queries as per my post number 41 and my prior dialogue? Jon seems to have evaporated as of late, not that he has not been helpful overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tom Lang Posted October 19, 2009 Members Share Posted October 19, 2009 Hi all, This week's gig post has a tip to anyone using a vocal harmony processor in performance (and a note to self for me) as well as an interesting observation. Before you say anything to audience after a song have a quick look down to confirm that harmony is off. I did this at my last gig and got a chuckle from the audience. I make no secret of the fact I use a harmony processor but saying "Thanks, that was a tune by..." in perfect harmony sounds ridiculous! Lately I've observed that my co-musicians have been jumping in on the harmony lines that used to be solely VoiceLive 2 and I! I guess they've learned the harmony parts from VoiceLive 2 and now want to participate. The extra vocal thickness is welcome only now I have to get them both to use a VoiceTone Correct so we can have the same Tone. 'Til next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tom Lang Posted October 19, 2009 Members Share Posted October 19, 2009 (Quoted from Chumly) >>>Have you tried it in this mode and if so how well does it discern the underlying key and the apropos harmony interval as compared to a chordal guitar input only? What do you figure it's "listening" to, the bass line and/or chordal parts? Would it work on just bass and drums? What would it do if there was no pitched portion in the middle of the tune from which to discern a reference? Would it get "confused" trying to discern a key and harmony interval from the drums alone? What if you do not want to hear the bass/drums/keys through the VoiceLive 2, but only the voice and the harmonies because the bass/drums/keys are already fed directly to the PA? (Answer) VoiceLive 2 monitors the pitches of what's coming in the Aux input. This could be a composite of bassline and chordal parts or just chordal music. A bassline alone (with or without drums) is likely to not work although the bass voice in a harmony line might follow ok. In this case, you can use Scale harmony which ignores the guitar or Aux inputs - when the key/scale combo works on your vocal melody and chordal movement, it works well. The way to not hear what's coming in the Aux input is to turn the Aux Level parameter in the Setup I/O menu to Off. Jon asked me about this offline and may actually be responding as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jon Chappell Posted October 19, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 19, 2009 Originally Posted by Chumly Hi Tom,are you able/willing to address my queries as per my post number 41 and my prior dialogue? Jon seems to have evaporated as of late, not that he has not been helpful overall. Chumly: I was catching up on the AES show this week, which was tough, given the travel, show coverage, video editing, etc. It's been a busy week. Hope you understand and will find the following responses helpful. Originally Posted by Chumly That's intriguing and AFAICT way beyond the abilities of the Digitech VL4 in this regard, yes? I have used the DigiTech unit, but have never compared these functions side by side. So I can't comment. Have you tried it in this mode and if so how well does it discern the underlying key and the apropos harmony interval as compared to a chordal guitar input only? The unit can derive the tonic quite easily, and bases harmonies quickly and correctly on diatonic harmonies. If the chords are non-diatonic (secondary dominants), it needs to hear the active tone (in the case of a secondary dominant in C, the third--an F# of the D major chord). What do you figure it's "listening" to, the bass line and/or chordal parts? I don't know, except to say that it's eerily successful and observant. I'm not sure what algorithms it's employing--root priority, quantitative sampling, and repetition (its memory seems to improve over time). Would it work on just bass and drums? Depends on the music and the bassline, but yes, I ran a test with a solo bass. In normal 4/4 ballads with a I/V pattern in the bass, the VoiceLive 2 assumes diatonic harmony unless told otherwise (through programming). Or if you play a walking bass with the third in the chord, it will recognize that as such. But you'll hear it "correct" itself. What if you do not want to hear the bass/drums/keys through the VoiceLive 2, but only the voice and the harmonies because the bass/drums/keys are already fed directly to the PA? At first I thought this was an easy question. Now I'm not so sure. With the guitar, you can simply mute it. The unit still hears the guitar but doesn't output it. But no such provision is listed for the Aux In option. (There are two ways to balance the signal--through the volume on the source itself, and the input level. But these don’t mute the output.) It's not clear whether the Aux Level is an input or output. The unit is actually at my singer-partner's house, so I'll defer to Tom on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chumly Posted October 19, 2009 Members Share Posted October 19, 2009 Hi Jon, Much appreciated indeed, and yep you've been very helpful overall and specifically. I've checked the Digitech VL4 pdf manual and no reference to triggering from a fully mixed ensemble AKA "Singing To Music Playback" (without vocals) is listed as a possible source. With the TC Helicon, it's odd there is no (obvious) way to mute the "Music Playback" source from the output. You'd think that would be highly desirable function in a solo act using MIDI triggered Rom'plers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jon Chappell Posted October 19, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 19, 2009 Originally Posted by Tom Lang (Quoted from Chumly)The way to not hear what's coming in the Aux input is to turn the Aux Level parameter in the Setup I/O menu to Off. Jon asked me about this offline and may actually be responding as well. But Tom, will turning off the Aux Level allow the VoiceLive to still hear the Aux source material for harmonizing? In other words, is the Aux Level an output level? I tried to have my partner test this function, but the results were inconclusive. (Will explore myself later.)This is a "problem" with the VoiceLive 2. When someone hears it, they go, "Whoa. Can I borrow that thing for a night?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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