Members Louis Schwartz Posted January 17, 2014 Members Share Posted January 17, 2014 Warning!! VERY LONG POST!!I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 17, 2014 Members Share Posted January 17, 2014 Way too complicated and unlikely to gain any improvement at all (and could easily sound far worse) cpompared with left-right out to the subs and then to the tops using the crossover in the subs. Drive the YX tops off of the same HP out. This is a good example of why a system approach to buying gear is important. I myself wouldn't even mess with anything but the RCF tops and the EV subs.Ambitious and insanity are not all that far apart. Keep it simple, you will come across better than falling on your face doing something that is not in the show's best interests IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted January 17, 2014 Members Share Posted January 17, 2014 I'll just note that a pair of 310a's could easily keep up with four of them little EV subs. And sounds like you plan on sending the bass, kick and floor tom only to the sub? That'll sound like arse . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 17, 2014 Members Share Posted January 17, 2014 RoadRanger wrote: I'll just note that a pair of 310a's could easily keep up with four of them little EV subs. It's not rock & roll. I would easily choose 2 tops and 2 subs without hesitation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Louis Schwartz Posted January 17, 2014 Author Members Share Posted January 17, 2014 Thanks. This is helpful and clarifying, as usual. One problem (and the reason I found myself thinking about trying the sub-mix out for the sub:The ZXa1-sub has no crossover for the tops--it just takes everything below for itself and sends the full range signal through to the tops (and the 310a's don't have a HPF), so I was trying--perhaps mistakenly so--to separate the low frequency signals and send them to the sub so the 310as only have to carry the rest of the signal.But if you all think it would be best to send the whole mix to the sub (as roadranger notes, with some exasperation, I only have one) and then from there to the tops without a crossover, and that this will likely give me enough volume, even with some of the bass signal and the low drum mic going through all three speakers I'd certainly rather do that. As Andy says, it's not rock and roll.Andy: when you say "Drive the YX tops off of the same HP out" I assume you mean drive all three speakers (the 1 15" and the 2 10") off of the same amp in the Yorkville M810 (with its GEQ). Did I get that right?And thank you all for taking some time to reply and make suggestions. Louis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 17, 2014 Members Share Posted January 17, 2014 Do you have access to a simple crossover? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted January 17, 2014 Members Share Posted January 17, 2014 My goodness, I thought that two posts got mixed together. This sounds like a very simple gig gone complicated. I would be tempted to use the two RCF's for mains and the two Yorkville YX10's as monitors and call it a day. Frankly in this case I would use two YX15's (no need for sub), two YX10's, and the M810 (since you have to use it anyway). Simple... and would sound good, and prevent micing everything including the kitchen sink - but as always, that's just me.This sounds like a very low key gig - don't overthink it, or as AH has basically said, it could go off the rails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pro Sound Guy Posted January 17, 2014 Members Share Posted January 17, 2014 agedhorse wrote: It's not rock & roll. I would easily choose 2 tops and 2 subs without hesitation. Sure, except it's a tiny 12 incher and he has only one . Look over the instrumentation again. That bandwidth in the sub region is not needed. In fact he could go without any subs at all and run four tops full range and that would work fine for that application. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Louis Schwartz Posted January 18, 2014 Author Members Share Posted January 18, 2014 The YX15s are what I used for FOH last year with the YX10s as wedges and the one pair of 310a's I had at the time as side-fills. And that what indeed adequate and relatively simple. I had only one mic on the drums last year just to get some of the sparkle off the heads and jingles, but didn't bother putting a mic on the low end of drums nor did I put the bass through the PA at all. I just let the combo amp handle it. It was adequate, but I was hoping for better this year. But I might not be ready yet, eqipment and experience-wise.Maybe I shouldn't bother with the sub at all, and just run everything but the drums and bass through the PA (the MFXi12 and the 310a's). This is what I usually do, anyway for most of our gigs, and maybe I should just stick to that and not complicate matters. I would still use the M810 to power the wedges.Or I could use all 4 310a's for FOH, use the YX15s as wedges and the YX10's as side fils (using the two auxes of the mixer). Again with no sub and no drum (or just a little off the heads) and no bass in the PA.I could probably afford to pickup a simple crossover to try out for the gig (and maybe return if I don't like it). But it's not something I've ever used before, so maybe it's an other complication I want to avoid for now until I understand better how to use it correctly? It's part of my longer term plan to get a second sub and a crossover, but I can only buy what I can afford in steps as I go.Again thanks for all the input and suggestions.Louis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Louis Schwartz Posted January 18, 2014 Author Members Share Posted January 18, 2014 OK, update.In light of what a number of you have said, and after asking around a little. I found I might be able to borrow a second ZXa1-sub and a DBX 223xs crossover tomorrow. And using the crossover looks a little simpler than I thought it might be. If I get hold of these, I can simply run the crossover in stereo mode, send my left and right main mix outs to the left and right channels of the crossover, and then from there send the high outputs left and right to a pair of 310a's and the low outputs left and right to the pair of subs. If I set the crossover point at about 100 hz, I could then run the bass and the drum mics into the mixer and the crossover will take care of sending the frequencies where I want them to go, and this should give me more than enough volume for a gig like this.Then I'd just run the YX15s as wedges from Aux 1 of the mixer, driving them with one of the amps in the M810 and it's GEQ, and run the other pair of 310a's from Aux 2 of the mixer for my side-fills.Much simpler and much more appropriate, yes? Just a matter of spending some time tomorrow making sure I can use the crossover correctly. It seems that it's either this or I revert back to one of my simpler schemes without the bass and drums in the PA.Is that really about the size of it?Louis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 18, 2014 Members Share Posted January 18, 2014 Yes, yes, yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Louis Schwartz Posted January 18, 2014 Author Members Share Posted January 18, 2014 Thank you. As usual that's very, very helpful!Louis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted January 18, 2014 Members Share Posted January 18, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 18, 2014 Members Share Posted January 18, 2014 The OPs music isn't modern sub heavy genre, that's why I think the zx subs will be ok with a crossover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted January 18, 2014 Members Share Posted January 18, 2014 agedhorse wrote: The OPs music isn't modern sub heavy genre, that's why I think the zx subs will be ok with a crossover. A pair, sure. One as he was originally planning on - not so much. I've used a pair of 200wrms 15" subs before with my 310A's and it was plenty for a ~200 cap club with a blues w/horns type band, even for the drum solo . OTOH these guys were all older top session/touring guys so no need to cover up any suckage with stoopid loud low end . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Louis Schwartz Posted January 18, 2014 Author Members Share Posted January 18, 2014 Drummer44 has it right, but my plan right now is to use 2 subs, since I have access to a second one, anyway, and I figure it's better to go in with more than I might need rather than maybe not enough. And I think the crossover is going to be a better ans simpler solution than trying to feed the sub just an aux or sub-mix. Louis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 18, 2014 Members Share Posted January 18, 2014 Good grief, all the subs are for in this application is to add some LF extension to some smaller tops. It's the ideal application for this kind of sub.I do a lot of jobs with less subs than some of you would consider "acceptable". A 6 deep line array with a single or double 18 is very common as all I need is a little extensiion at very reasonable volume from 90Hz down to about 45Hz, max SPL at 50' is 90-95dB. Easily achievable though some of you here couldn't see it work without 6 subs (or more) per side). This was for some high paying corporate gigs with some bumper music, a light rock band and 200 people after a conference.You have to understand what's needed, what the music requires and choose accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mike M Posted January 19, 2014 Members Share Posted January 19, 2014 "....So it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Louis Schwartz Posted January 19, 2014 Author Members Share Posted January 19, 2014 You're probably right, Mike! In any case, I've called off the experiments. I've got the 2 zxa1-subs and the crossover, now, so I won't need any clever strategies. I'll let you all know how it goes!Best,Louis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Louis Schwartz Posted January 20, 2014 Author Members Share Posted January 20, 2014 I just wanted to thank everyone who contributed to the thread--especially Andy--for the very sound advice. I did the gig today with the 2 ZXa1-subs and the DBX223xs crossover. Very simple and easy to use, and it made a very big difference in the sound we were able to project. The guy who organizes the music for the festival every year was delighted because he said that for the fist time the sound was full, clear, and audible at approriate levels throughout the room. He went on and on. We've been playing this event every year for about 7 years now, and this is the first time I feel like we were really able to put our music across in exactly thw way the situation demanded. The first few years it was in a terrible low-ceilinged room downstaitrs at a small local synagogue. Last year was the first time they did it at this larger space at the Jewish Community Center, and last year was OK for us, sound-wise, but things were either too loud up front or too muddy and weak toward the back of the room. As Andy suggested, this was the perfect appllication for those little subs with the 310a's as tops. Vocals were clear, the clarinet sounded great, and the bass and druma (mic'd both at the heads and down at the outlets near the floor) had some force without being overpowering.The only weak link in the set-up from my perspective were the YX10s I used as wedges. They worked, but they can sound so strident and cutting--especially for my acoustic guitar that it can be a little unpleasant to use them as monitors. Replacing them with another pair of 310a's will be my next step in the upgrade process.I'm so pleased with the way the second sub and the crossover worked that I'm looking into buying the ones I borrowed.Anyway, just wanted to update and thank you all!Best,Louis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 20, 2014 Members Share Posted January 20, 2014 Excellent! I am pretty familiar with klezmer music, I toured with a klezmer act in the early 80's and have worked with a local klezmer band here recently building up a system for them just like yours. Experience really does help as you can see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Louis Schwartz Posted January 20, 2014 Author Members Share Posted January 20, 2014 No question about that! Thanks for making some of yours available. I'm very pleased with the choices I've been able to make on your advice and the advice of several other regular contributors here. A few more steps, and I should have exactly the kind of scalable, modular set up I need for handling just about all the different sorts of gigs we play, As you suggest, it's very well suited to the music.Louis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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