PIANO GODS: Please Weigh In....

[SuperCoolManchu]

Hi All,

 

Need help with the age-old digital piano dilemma...

 

I'm about to become a serious classical piano student. Need to train at home in silence. Eventually, I want to be proficient/giggable in Jazz, Blues, R&B, but that's a ways off.

 

Am considering the Yamaha P250, Yamaha PF500, and Kawai MP9500.

 

PRICE (until Monday!): P250=2K, MP9500=1900, PF500=1800

 

P250

PROS: portable, 128 polyphony

CONS: most expensive, needs pedal unit, stand, music stand

UNKNOWN: how the action compares to the Kawai, ditto for piano sounds

 

PF500

PROS: cheapest, 128 polyphony, comes *training ready* with stand, music stand, and three pedal unit which can do the half-pedal thing

CONS: harder to move

UNKNOWN: product specs indicate same keyboard and sounds as P250, but they are priced differently and they didn't quite seem the same during my quick demo, also not sure if it is giggable at all

 

MP9500

PROS: reputation as best action, portability, middle price of the three

CONS: no stand, music stand, pedal has to be tweeked and needs an extra

one, some say the piano sounds are bad (plus that one Grand *flaw* in reveiws), 64 polyphony

UNKNOWN: can't demo pre-purchase, don't know if it will do the half-pedal, not sure how much polyphony will matter in heavy Classical repertoire

 

I am currently leaning towards the Kawai because I am under the impression that action is the most important thing with regard to developing technique. But since my teacher will be busting my chops on everything (legato, expression, dynamics, pedaling), perhaps one of the Yamahas is a better compromise if the action is *good enough*?

 

Please help....

[mucsusn]

Many is the piano student who suffered through a mediocre console and still develop into a decent player ;-).

 

I recommend the P250, and make the investment in the stand and other accessories, because ultimately you can gig with it.

 

The action and nuance on any of these is not as good as a fine Renner action, but miles better than almost any upright.

 

If you've got the music in you, it will not serve as a severe hindrance.

 

Sounds like your ultimate goal is to gig, and the Yammy is a fine tool for that journey.

[rintincop]

P250 for les$ than you think. Call Tom Merrit at The Music Center Inc. for a quote. Don't go by the website price.

 

Second choice: Roland RD700 or Kawai 9500 (discontinued)

[analogaddict]

...and when you

[ehzsc]

I agree with analogaddict, make sure you get a sturdy stand. Also make sure the stand will place the board at a comfortable playing height. The first stand under my p250 was a loaner that didn't quite go low enough; pretty annoying.

 

- Ehz

 

(Btw, rintincop is right. the $2000 figure you mention is too high. Even the online $2000 quotes include bundled stands, benches, etc.)

[SuperCoolManchu]

thanks, guys.

 

Sounds like everyone is in agreement that the P250 is the way to go.

 

I tried calling the music center, inc., but no one seemed to know who Tom Merrit was. They did have an internet price of $1899, though. With shipping, I'm probably back up to $2K. Haven't seen anything that looks like a *bundle* for the P250, however, on any site.

 

Could I get a telephone number for Tom? Maybe I'm trying the wrong music center?!

 

Thanks!

[baldo]

where's p120dude?

 

i can't believe he hasn't chimed in on this thread?

 

maybe he finally agrees that the p250 is better.

 

[bebop603]

I guess my question would be why you are about to study classical if you want to gig in jazz/blues/rock? The study of jazz piano alone could easily take a few years before you're ready for your first gig. There aren't too many people around who are expert at both in jazz and classical piano. Usually jazz pianists treat classical piano as a hobby and visa-versa.

 

P.S. Go to your closest Sam Ash and play the P250 and MP9500 for a few hours before you make a decision. My rec might be the Roland RD700 for blues/rock/jazz. Though I have a MP9000 and love it.

[ehzsc]

 

Originally posted by SuperCoolManchu ... Haven't seen anything that looks like a *bundle* for the P250, however, on any site. ...

 

This is the kind of deal I had in mind: P250 at emusicgear; P250 plus bench, plus stand, plus volume pedal and free shipping for $2000.

 

I didn't buy my P250 from them, I bought from a local dealer, so take this as an example, not an endorsement . (Though I did buy something much smaller, lighter, and cheaper from them, and it was a trouble free transaction.)

[C. Martin]

Originally posted by baldo where's p120dude? i can't believe he hasn't chimed in on this thread? maybe he finally agrees that the p250 is better.

 

No, I dont agree that the p250 is better. I don't like the p250.

 

And I just got back from Vacation, so I haven't posted in a while. I also decided to come back to the forum, since I left 4 weeks ago, I decided to come back.

 

Regards,

p120dUdE:cool:

[baldo]

Originally posted by p120dUdE No, I dont agree that the p250 is better. I don't like the p250. And I just got back from Vacation, so I haven't posted in a while. I also decided to come back to the forum, since I left 4 weeks ago, I decided to come back. Regards, p120dUdE:cool:

 

so you decided to come back when you come back. great!

 

why would you not like the p250?

 

jealous?

 

[C. Martin]

Originally posted by baldo so you decided to come back when you come back. great! why would you not like the p250? jealous?

 

I dont like the p250 because the action is not smooth and the pianos are quite harsh, they are not smooth. The p120's pianos are smooth, beatiful, and superb, and so is the action. This is my personal opinion.

 

And I left the forum 4 weeks ago, but I decided to come back.

 

Regards,

p120dUdE

[ehzsc]

 

Originally posted by p120dUdE I dont like the p250 because the action is not smooth and the pianos are quite harsh, they are not smooth. The p120's pianos are smooth, beatiful, and superb, and so is the action. This is my personal opinion. And I left the forum 4 weeks ago, but I decided to come back. Regards, p120dUdE

 

 

I feel sorry for you p120dUde, I really do. Not because of what your stated opinion is, but because you seem so desperate to defend it.

 

You believe what you believe. Others believe what they believe. Live and let live.

 

I wish you well.

 

- Ehz

[SuperCoolManchu]

Thanks for the bundle link. I had never been to that site before (and with no internet sales tax and free shipping, it is a much better deal).

 

With regard to the classical/jazz question:

 

I'm not trying to actually become a concert level Classical pianist, but want to study mainly for technique development. (Apparently Classical repertoire is helpful for this.) I plan to take jazz lessons also and work at applying the technique to my playing in that genre.

 

I may be getting a bum steer on this, but the impression I have from my classical teacher is that she believes she is teaching the *how* of playing the instrument, regardless of the *what* a person may eventually choose to play. If you see things differently, I'd certainly be interested in your perspective as well.

 

Unless someone can provide me with different information, I'm unable to compare the P250 with the MP9500 in store as you suggested. The 9500 has been discontinued and the only place I've been able to locate one doesn't carry Yamaha products. The Sam Ash website does not carry the item at all anymore. If someone knows where both models are in CA, I'd love to have that info.! THNX

[C. Martin]

 

Originally posted by ehzsc I feel sorry for you p120dUde, I really do. Not because of what your stated opinion is, but because you seem so desperate to defend it. You believe what you believe. Others believe what they believe. Live and let live. I wish you well. - Ehz

 

 

I am not desperate, I am just saying my opinion. And plus, someone left a wise butt remark I had to respond to, because they cannot accept my opinion.

 

Regards,

p120dUdE

[Learning67]

Originally posted by bebop603 I guess my question would be why you are about to study classical if you want to gig in jazz/blues/rock? The study of jazz piano alone could easily take a few years before you're ready for your first gig. There aren't too many people around who are expert at both in jazz and classical piano. Usually jazz pianists treat classical piano as a hobby and visa-versa.

 

And If its a hobby, they're usually not that good.

 

Mr. Super--

 

You have the right idea, classical music is about learning to play the instruments. In the long run, classical music will give you ideas for chord voicings and melodic phrasing while also develop your independance (left hand from right, that is) and overall technique.

 

Consider some of the icons of jazz pianist in the post-1960 era--

Herbie, Chick, and Keith Jarrett. They can all play the f*ck out of classical music. Other good jazz pianist practice classical music all the time in order to work on their technique. I once saw Harold Mabern play a chopin etude he was working on. THe thing is, Harold cant really read music all that well, he was learning the etude by ear.

 

Many classical pianist admire and envy the jazz musicians ability to improvise and will often try to emulate them and practice that stuff. In the loing run, it helps with their melodic phrasing and ability to interpret the written piece.

 

There is no easy way out to playing jazz, unless you want to play Kenny G/Jeff Lorber crap, Mr Super has the right idea....its just going to take a while

[bebop603]

I think it depends a lot on how good your classical teacher is. I always felt like I wasted a lot of time learning to site-read without really understanding much of the theory that went into creating the arrangements. Life is too short...if you want to eventually play jazz/blues/rock then that's what you should study.

 

What's so cool about jazz piano is that *you* are creating the arrangments. You start by learning intervals,chords,voicings, progressions and songs that are part of the jazz rep. Eventually you can take a melody and basic harmony (via chord symbols) and create more and more complex and interesting arrangments. I just like the "bottom up" approach of jazz piano better than the "top down" approach of classical. Learning jazz piano definitely makes you more capable of coming up with arrangments for a group/band setting. Also helps hugely with song writing if you get into that.

 

Take a look at the Jazz Piano Book by Mark Levine--the best Method book IMO. Add Band in the Box + Real Book for Band in the Box(Nearly 1000 songs...not totally legit..if you use this buy the Real Books too so the artists get compensated) + essential jazz phrases for Band in the Box and you've got a great start.

 

P.S. I think the review that mentions the "flaw" in the MP9500 is totally nutso. I can't hear it at all. I can't even hear the supposed flaw on the MP9000(which I own). I have heard some strange things when Reverb is set too high...that's probably the source of the problem IMO.

 

[Miket156]

Hey Super Cool:

 

You can get the P250, the Yamaha LP3 stand, which is made for the P250, and a Yamaha Piano Bench at emusicgear.com all for 1995.00! They have them in stock. You can email Dave (owner's son) at dave@emusicgear.com. or call them. The have a great web site and you can call them instead of email at 877-266-8647. They also carry the other Yamaha accessories if you want to buy a volume pedal, etc. Give them a shot. They are nice folks and have a nice package deal on the P250. Its a family owned business but they sell a lot of gear and are serious about their business. They also RETURN phone calls.

 

Regards,

 

Mike T.

[rintincop]

tom merrit @ 1-888-697-9393

the music center inc.

 

[rintincop]

p250 works best with the quik-lok ws-550 stand (~$95)

REMOVE the extension legs to get the ideal lowest height.

[Jimmyzegg]

 

Originally posted by rintincop p250 works best with the quik-lok ws-550 stand (~$95) REMOVE the extension legs to get the ideal lowest height.

 

 

true dat. It's more stable that way too.

[SuperCoolManchu]

Hi Guys,

 

Thanks so much for all the kind suggestions and helpful information. I feel really lucky to have happened on to this site.

 

I do have a question about the pedal options for the P250. The PF500 has a pedal board unit that has all three typical piano pedals. The P250 (according to specs) has four output jacks for sustain, sostenuto, expression, and soft(?I think). If I want the option to have all three pedals available to me when I'm playing, do I buy two additional of the one that the unit comes with and just put them in their respective plugs and line them up on the floor? Or what? It strikes me as an overkill solution, but perhaps it's the only way to achieve the piano setup with this keyboard, given that it's made for stage performing (and those folks that must have all three piano pedals to perform probably would be playing a *real* piano on stage anyway) Does anyone know if that pedal board for the PF500 is: a) sold separately? or b) compatible with the P250 output jacks?

 

rintincop: Thanks for the Music Center contact and stand information. I've been reading old threads to try to get up to speed and noticed on one of your postings that you mentioned that you hadn't had to pay more than $1300 for a P250, which is considerably lower than the $1650 figure you mentioned here. Was that a special price for you because you buy so many units/refer so many people? It strikes me as odd that the price would go up over time (inflation?) since so often these keyboards--like much electronic equipment--become obsolete as time goes by. I gather that the P250 is a classic and still tops in its class (at least on this site!), but I thought that the American Way was to continually shave prices downward to beat the competition...which leads me to a related question: Are all P250s created equal? Or does the keyboard business work like cars, where it's the same model name but *tweaked* each year? It appears that keyboards get new names/titles if they are significantly upgraded, but it seems hard to believe that the first P250 is the exact same board as one I might buy tomorrow. Some kind of minor materials changes might also explain why the price you quoted me is different from the $1300 figure. Your thoughts?

 

I will plan to get the quik-lok stand, since it comes so highly recommended (although I'll have to try and figure out the extension legs part one I have it in front of me). Anybody have suggestions about a bench? All i am certain of is that my teacher will probably insist it be adjustable; She's very particular in that way.

 

bebop603: Thanks for your reply as well. I studied Classical piano as a child and also gained very little in terms of any ability to improvise, analyze the music I was playing, sight read or perform with solid technique--so I am really in agreement with you about things depending on the teacher.

 

I briefly studied with a *Jazz* piano teacher who came at Jazz from a Classical angle, using Classical pieces to teach applied theory, since the music is already "transcribed." I think this might have been fruitful, but was not able to continue my study for non-musical reasons. I also had *Jazz* teachers in a university program that didn't teach me anything about improvising or reading chords during four semesters of study. As a result, I can play a few groovy Jazz standards, a couple of which I composed introductions for, but they are about as useful to me in becoming a Jazz *player* as the Bach Inventions that I memorized as a child--good for pulling out at parties, but not much else. So I suppose I'm saying that, in my experience, it's possible to *waste* a lot of time with a teacher who is categorized under any style (although I agree that *Classical* piano study, expecially in the 'burbs where I grew up, is notorious for this shortcoiming with respect to becoming a musician).

 

The Classical teacher that I will be starting with shortly trained at a Russian-style conservatory in Poland before the fall of the Soviet Union. Her primary emphasis with beginning students is on physical technique. How to sit. The proper relationship of keyboard to body. Hand position. Relaxation. Practice techniques. Exercises to gain fluidity and speed without sacrificing relaxation (here I reference the "knock hand away" test described by (I think) Dave Horne on this site). Whether or not we will then (or concurrently) explore music from a transferrable analytical perspective is an unknown, but my hope is that at least the mechanics of efficient and economical body useage will directly benefit my playing in other contexts.

 

I am not super familiar with the work of the pianists that "Learning67" mentioned, but have seen a couple of them (Keith Jarrett and Herbie Hancock) live and can believe that they have good Classical chops. For me, there is a something *extra* in terms of quality and mastery that (well-trained) "Classically trained" Jazz musicians have that I am hoping to attain. Of the players that I have recently seen, Bill Charlap and Michel Camilo come to mind as examples of what I am talking about.

 

I already have The Jazz Piano Book by Mr. Levine, but have not been successful in making much headway with it. The cats I have met that rave about it are typically those who have been to music school, but majored in another instrument. With their background, the book is apparently like a Rosetta Stone for the piano. For a novice such as myself, it's still a little obtuse. But I am nonetheless optimistic that at some point it will seem clearer. A former classmate of mine gave me a basic chord book by Bill Boyd that I'm hoping will help me transition up to Mr. Levine's level of discourse. I will look into the Band-in-the-Box items and really appreciate all the suggestions.

 

Thanks again to everyone.

[bebop603]

Hi Manchu,

 

Just to follow up on the Mark Levine Book.

It's definitely not for causually browsing unless you already have some theory under your belt. I think it works best if you work through the chapters one at a time(and sequentially). You really have to do all the exercises and try the techniques on suggested songs to really get the most out of the book. That means writing voices out through the cycle of fifths--I use a cycle-of-fifths exercise from band in the box and delete the existing notes (just leaving the chord symbols) so I can fill in my own. Also its important ot go through the suggested tunes at the end of each chapter and do arrangements for each one with the new voicings/techniques. Again, band in the box with a Real Book add on helps out a lot here. So for a beginner, each chapter could easily take 4-6 weeks. You just have to take your time with it. But it's a great way to build both your knowledge of jazz theory and repertoire.

[Karnevil]

I've played both pianos, so I guess I should chime in here. This is of course my opinion, and since I own an MP9500, obvisously I'm more familiar with that one than the P250.

 

When regarding technique-building, I believe the MP9500 has the edge. The piano-mechanics give the keys a very smooth feeling (although the MP9500 needs some tweaking out of the box- and for the 100th time, the grand piano sound is great when tweaked.)

The MP9500 has two drawbacks, inferior non-keyboard sounds compared to P250, and the bounceback could be a bit faster - like P250. However, the P250 keys feels excessively stiff and hard to me. I've played on a real Yamaha grand, and that piano needed pretty much half the playing force compared to P250. I can't understand why digital pianos have to be so damn heavy to play. It's great for techique building, but when playing really demanding pieces, the heavy keys are killing my arms!

 

If technique building and practice are your main goals right now, get the MP9500 which is much cheaper than P250 (because of the discontinuaton in USA). After all, piano-wise, the two keyboards are fairly even-matched. If you get really good, and start playing gigs frequently, THEN you should buy the most expensive, best etc. stage piano. A couple of years from now both Yamaha and Kawai will have new models out anyway...

 

IMO of course...

[SuperCoolManchu]

Hi Guys,

 

Thanks for the replies.

 

Bebop603: Thanks for the Mark Levine tips. Once I figure out where I've stashed the book, I'll give it another go. At the moment, I can't remember what it was that made me give up on it, but if I run into the problem again, I'll be sure to start a 'helpme!' thread!

 

I'm not theoryless, but I do remember feeling that I must have been missing something because the text seemed to get pretty dense pretty fast. I kind of have a "swiss cheese" architecture in terms of my musical knowledge; There are things I know about or can do that belie the strength of the foundational knowledge that I have underneath. This is probably because I've done all of my study so piecemeal...

 

For example: I can read music, but sight read poorly. Can analyze pieces harmonically and build chords if you give me their "name," but can't *read* chords, voice chords (except very mechanically and SLOOWWLY), or transpose at sight. Know about modes, but can't improvise. Can't transcribe. Can sort of sight sing. Just a musical hodge podge.

 

Just an aside: I've met people who've studied with Mr. Levine and from what they say, the Jazz Piano Book is pretty much a compilation of the notes/assignments that he gives his weekly piano students. So, in essence, buying the book is the same as studying with him--only much more cost effiective!!

************************************************************

Karnevil: Thanks so much for the MP9500 info. I don't know much about the "bounceback" issue, but do remember reading that comment in the reviews. The biggest concern I have about the Kawai is the comment that rintincop made about connectivity between notes, blending and musicality, in addition to the remark that was made about some kind of longer delay (than the P250) between hitting the key and hearing the sound (connection between action and sound). I don't know that I am developed enouggh to notice these things, but would be afraid that they might affect my development in a negative way. My teacher will be insisting that everything blend and connect beautifully, and if the MP9500 is significantly more limited than the P250 in those regards, I don't want to end up developing my playing style as a response to the limits of the (artificial) instrument. On the other hand, your comments about the stiffness of the keys bear some consideration also. If I am able to put in the kind of practice hours I would like (once I can play at my convenience), the force required to play the piano could become a serious consideration.

 

If it is true that there are MP9500s to be had for a song, I must be tuning into the wrong frequency! At this point, I have had almost no luck locating a MP9500 to purchase at all, let alone getting a "good deal." I have so far located just one, which is *new* and being offered at a firm $1900 because the store is aware that these are hard to track down in the US. I have yet to see the MP9500 (or P250 for that matter) listed in any classified ads. With rintincop's info. that a P250 can be had for $1650 (taxless, I believe), the MP9500 appears to be the more expeensive option at the moment. If you have any information or leads to the contrary, please let me know. If I could get one at a substantial discount to the P250, I'd be really psyched!

 

I also have been wondering why people aren't talking about the MegaPro 2/3 when the digital piano discussions come up? And why not the *Q+* thing that someone posted as the "best digital piano evahhh" in another thread? I don't know much about either keyboard, but they seem to be very highly regarded in the scant references to them that I've seen. Are they not mentioned because they are: a) very expensive? b) not very well represented in mainstream music stores? c) *more* than mainly stage pianos?, or d) not widely used? Just curious...

 

Hook me up with a dirt cheap 9500 and make my day!

SCM