Members electrobaby Posted August 26, 2004 Members Share Posted August 26, 2004 Forgive me if I gave the wrong impression. I am not saying that anything other than a B3/C3 is {censored}. Its just that, and we all know this, those models probably have the greatest flexibility to give the sounds fuzzy4dice and most other people are looking for - they are versitile instruments - the other models are still ok - but not for 350 bucks - and adding a leslie is gonna cost ya a bunch - you cant just buy any leslie and plug it in - dont work that way - as for NI B4 - well I have played a lot of romplers over the years with hammond patches and this software is BY FAR the most accurate in terms of tone and leslie simulation - and NI does have a physical drawbar controller available - also by saying "its not a real hammond":confused: What does that really mean...does that mean that its not a big heavy wooden box with the words HAMMOND printed on it??? No NI B4 is not that...but it is far more versitile of a sound than that of an M series (which I am sure it can easily emulate with a bit of tweaking) fuzzy4dice...if you want a real hammond than buy one...but I would look a bit more ...as 350 is a bit high..especially with no leslie...and that will cost you some bucks to buy and have someone retrofit the organ to make it work! also if you have a computer and controller ...download NI B4 demo ...its free and you will be totally blown away. It is killer for cutting tracks. and FearMyPotato...my reasoning is not terrible..just realistic..you cant seriously quote a tune that was recorded 25 years ago and say that is justification for it...at the time that tune was recorded (and it is a great tune) they didnt have NEAR the choices we have today in technology and gear choices - do you think they would have chosen that keyboard today - I doubt it - I think some vintage gear is great ( i own a fender rhodes 73 as well as a full korg ms patchable system) and I think a lot of vintage gear is just vintage. Unfortunatly many people use vintage company names to try and justify a high price....and some of us know better...and some of us dont and pay 450 dollars for a moog mg-1! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dan88z Posted August 26, 2004 Members Share Posted August 26, 2004 The M100 series can use the 145/147 leslie. These are readily available and while not cheap, you can still find a good one in the $600 range. Once you have one you can use it for any other organ emulator you want so it's not a bad investment if you are into having authentic gear. When I said B4 is not a Hammond, that's exactly what I meant. There is something to be said about the whirr of a motor, the smell of tubes burning, the feel of the keys, how the drawbars move that creates the Hammond experience. You don't get that with a computer program. It's like driving a vintage car- not something you will use every day but it's a lot of fun to have. I'm not a purist in any way. I play an electro thru a leslie for my live rig. That said, if I had the means to haul a real hammond around, I would, because the playing experience is so much fun. A clone can fill the bill without a problem but unless you have spent many hours on the original units that the clones emulate (hammonds, rhodes pianos, clavs, etc) you really can't compare. It's easy for someone who has spent little or no time on a hammond to say that their B4 clone sounds just like a B3, but they really don't know. I'm not saying thats the case with the participants here, but in general, you get the feeling that most people have rarely played a hammond and really can't make a good comparision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Fear My Potato Posted August 26, 2004 Members Share Posted August 26, 2004 Originally posted by electrobaby and FearMyPotato...my reasoning is not terrible..just realistic..you cant seriously quote a tune that was recorded 25 years ago and say that is justification for it...at the time that tune was recorded (and it is a great tune) they didnt have NEAR the choices we have today in technology and gear choices - do you think they would have chosen that keyboard today - I doubt it - I think some vintage gear is great ( i own a fender rhodes 73 as well as a full korg ms patchable system) and I think a lot of vintage gear is just vintage. Unfortunatly many people use vintage company names to try and justify a high price....and some of us know better...and some of us dont and pay 450 dollars for a moog mg-1! Yeah I can seriously quote a tune. If you want I'll seriously quote tunes from 2002 using Hammonds. How about "Love Boat Captain" by Pearl Jam? My point is that most professional artists tend to go for the real thing over something designed to emulate it if they can help it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Fear My Potato Posted August 26, 2004 Members Share Posted August 26, 2004 Originally posted by dan88z The M100 series can use the 145/147 leslie. These are readily available and while not cheap, you can still find a good one in the $600 range. Once you have one you can use it for any other organ emulator you want so it's not a bad investment if you are into having authentic gear. Damn $600 now? Is that for a mint refurbished one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dan88z Posted August 26, 2004 Members Share Posted August 26, 2004 Originally posted by Fear My Potato Damn $600 now? Is that for a mint refurbished one? No, that would be for a used on in pretty good shape though, something you could use right away without doing anything to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GlassPrisoner Posted August 26, 2004 Members Share Posted August 26, 2004 "John Paul Jones used his own M-100 for the first Led Zeppelin record, on "You Shook Me" and "Your Time Is Gonna Come." Two classic Hammond solos. Also, the afformentioned Boston song. And, who can forget Hush ? (B-3, IIRC) Anyway, if you have a Rhodes, than that M series will make a killer compliment to your rig. I'll bet the Hammond Zone guys are all saying to buy it, no ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kikedeolivos Posted August 26, 2004 Members Share Posted August 26, 2004 Originally posted by dan88z ...There is something to be said about the whirr of a motor, the smell of tubes burning, the feel of the keys, how the drawbars move that creates the Hammond experience. You don't get that with a computer program. It's like driving a vintage car- not something you will use every day but it's a lot of fun to have... That is what is ALL about.(aside the sound) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members electrobaby Posted August 26, 2004 Members Share Posted August 26, 2004 yes Fear My Potato, but what model did Pearl Jam use? an M series? they probably used the same model most key players that use organs use- dont fool yourself - - most importantnly since fuzzy is using it for recording and not gigging, I don't care how experienced you think you are...when it comes to listening to an organ track buried in a mix...you would NEVER know the difference... I get a kick out of people that take some obscure techno song today and say "oh thats a minimoog bass or oh thats an arp oddesey etc...gimme a break ....with all the synths out there and mastering stuff...there is no way of knowing these things...but people pretend that they somehow know... you only know peral jam used this vintage gear because its printed on the cd - its not like you heard an organ on one of their songs and said "oh I can tell that that is this Hammond model" - playing live is different story all together - you attain the vibe from the interaction with the physical side of the instrument - but fuzzy is not getting it to gig with I guess I just dont buy into the "just because its old its classic" idea and just because it is new and digital and incorporates a computer...it sucks and its {censored}...because as tools for cutting tracks...the bottom line is whether the sound is acceptable in the mix... and there are numerous ways of achieving the sound of an M series organs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dan88z Posted August 26, 2004 Members Share Posted August 26, 2004 Originally posted by electrobaby I guess I just dont buy into the "just because its old its classic" idea and just because it is new and digital and incorporates a computer...it sucks and its {censored}...because as tools for cutting tracks...the bottom line is whether the sound is acceptable in the mix... and there are numerous ways of achieving the sound of an M series organs I'm not arguing that point- I have plenty of new gear and love it all. But someone has the opportunity to purchase a vintage instrument in mint condition- if the price is right, why not get it. It doesn't matter if he's using it for recording or not- it's a fun instrument to have and to play. Personally I can get a lot more inspired sitting at a console than I can sitting in front of a computer screen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fuzzy4dice Posted August 26, 2004 Author Members Share Posted August 26, 2004 Originally posted by electrobaby - playing live is different story all together - you attain the vibe from the interaction with the physical side of the instrument - but fuzzy is not getting it to gig with Personally, I think it's important to get the vibe while recording too. I think interaction in the studio is extrmely important. That's one of the reasons I got the Rhodes...I'm sure not taking that "portable piano" anywhere anytime soon. Yes, the Hammond Zone guys are all gung-ho...except they (as here) all think that 350 is a lot unless it's in MINT condition. I'm a pretty good haggler so I'll do what I can. Most of them seem ot have gotten thier Hammonds from curbs and garages. They, however, all seem to be a lot more handy in repairing them than I would be. Anyway, this is a great discussion. I hope I don't hate the organ when I play it. I'll call the guy tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Fear My Potato Posted August 26, 2004 Members Share Posted August 26, 2004 Originally posted by dan88z I'm not arguing that point- I have plenty of new gear and love it all. But someone has the opportunity to purchase a vintage instrument in mint condition- if the price is right, why not get it. It doesn't matter if he's using it for recording or not- it's a fun instrument to have and to play. Personally I can get a lot more inspired sitting at a console than I can sitting in front of a computer screen. Exactly, nobody said new is {censored}, I'm just saying why the hell use something that emulates a Hammond when you can use the real thing for probably less money. I just don't understand. An Electro is still well over a grand, B4 is relatively inexpensive but not if you factor in two controller keyboards, possibly a new souncard, and a midi drawbar controller. Clones are around two grand unless you get an older one at the expense of sound quality. So even with $200 for the organ and $600 for a Leslie you're coming in at $800 which isn't bad for the real deal. What I don't get is the school of thought that says "Oh it's in the mix so it doesn't have to sound good." What the {censored}. A bass or a rhythm guitar is in the mix too but you don't hear respectable bands playing on squires through PODs. I mean if every single aspect of the recording is as good as it can possibly be (and in this case, using a real Hammond is going to be better than using a hammond emulator) then you'll get a better recording than if you compromise on things, even if it's back in the mix. And electrobaby, Pearl Jam used a B3 for their latest album Riot Act, I never even implied they used an M series. When I first heard "Love Boat Captain" I said to myself damn that's a really sweet Hammound sound! and I looked inside and sure enough it was the real deal. That just made me like the song even more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members suitandtieguy Posted August 27, 2004 Members Share Posted August 27, 2004 these are the mere opinions of a gigging-in-the-field organist/ambient texturalist/professional-yet-not-anywhere-near-bad-ass Hammond tech (i charge people and repair organs. that does not mean i can do a generator rebuild or any amp work whatsoever.) the M-100 will give you 95 percent of the rock organ sound. the L-100 will give you 100 percent of the rock organ sound if you worship Keith Emerson. the M-100, L-100, or any other non-console (and many consoles such as the E-series or R-series) should never cost you more than a hundred bucks. maybe 2 or 3 if the market is right and you are horny enough for it. the R-100/H-100 series has incredible manual bass tones, yet is skimpy on keyclick. they also lack the 3-series style percussion if you want to sound exactly like Jimmy Smith (or Groove Holmes or Jimmy McGriff et cetera) you MUST have a 2-series or 3-series console (the A-100 is a 3-series console). there are peculiarities to those organs which are vital to the jazz organ idiom. if you care to have your own sound, it doesn't matter which Hammond you have. you don't _need_ a vintage Leslie. the Motion Sound stuff is great. the Speakeasy road Leslie looks like it's great. do not poo-poo the solid-state Leslies too quickly ... they have some excellent qualities. if you want to have your own unique sound, you may not need a Leslie at all. I happen to think a Line6 POD with the foot controller is a perfect mate for an L-100 in an electronic music context. Leslie simulators can be very helpful. btw, if you play jazz on the Hammond you don't even need a 2-speed Leslie. most jazz organ records were cut with single speed Leslies. all Booker T & the MGs records before Hip-Hug-Her were recorded with a Leslie-less M-3. Booker didn't even use a 2-speed Leslie on an MGs record till Melting Pot. a Hammond console with a Leslie in excellent electro-mechanical condition is the only instrument i've ever played which nearly brings me to a spontaneous male orgasm by merely holding a triad and hitting the speed switch. i love ladder filter sweeps ... the 909 gets me bumpin ... Eventide-drenched looping puts me in heaven ... but the Hammond is king for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fuzzy4dice Posted August 27, 2004 Author Members Share Posted August 27, 2004 I think I'm going to cry...that was so...so...so... NO, STOP LOOKING AT ME! Ok, I will offer the cat $75.00 and THAT's IT! lol ezt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kikedeolivos Posted August 27, 2004 Members Share Posted August 27, 2004 Originally posted by Fear My Potato ...$600 for a Leslie ... Where? What model? 2 speed? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members electrobaby Posted August 27, 2004 Members Share Posted August 27, 2004 you don't _need_ a vintage Leslie. the Motion Sound stuff is great. the Speakeasy road Leslie looks like it's great. do not poo-poo the solid-state Leslies too quickly ... they have some excellent qualities. exactly, I agree with you and have heard the motion sound...cant tell the difference...but there are people that will still say "it isnt a REAL leslie" ...it doesnt weigh a ton and it doesnt have LESLIE written on it so somehow it just isnt quite as good...the same goes for any organ too... you obviously love Hammonds..I just love the Hammond sound ...which I can get a much more versitile version through other means other than my L-102 "the L-100 will give you 100 percent of the rock organ sound"- I dont think I know what this means...what is a rock organ sound...I would rather have versatility so that every organ track I do doesnt sound the same... Fear My Potato: "What I don't get is the school of thought that says "Oh it's in the mix so it doesn't have to sound good." What the {censored}. A bass or a rhythm guitar is in the mix too but you don't hear respectable bands playing on squires through PODs." I have know idea what your talking about..I never even implied anything remotly close to "Oh it's in the mix so it doesn't have to sound good." - what I said is if it sounds great then who cares what it was played on - would you like that pearl jam song less if the liner notes said that the track was cut with a rompler synth? thats kinda weak isnt it...to judge your level of appreciation based on the manufacture of the instrument. "I mean if every single aspect of the recording is as good as it can possibly be (and in this case, using a real Hammond is going to be better than using a hammond emulator)" better how??? trust me ... in a mix a great organ sound is a great organ sound...you would never know the difference these days between a B3 and NI B4... and your wrong about the POD...its the same deal and there are tons of respectable big names using the POD to record with...I just read the other day that Trevor Rabin is using one for soundtracking. people say emulators are not the real deal...of course thier not...thier emulations...but its only really an issue when you can tell a difference in the sound (on tape im speaking)...and these days the technology is so good that you just cant tell anymore... I mean certainly if I had a B3 with a leslie I would be in heaven and record all organ tracks with that only...but I wont spend 8k for it! and I would totally rather use NI B4 for organ tracks than my old L-102 simply because it just sounds A LOT better...hows that ...I have the real deal and choose not to record with it...why...because in the end whats the most important for me is the sound in the mix and not the name on the instrument! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Fear My Potato Posted August 27, 2004 Members Share Posted August 27, 2004 Originally posted by electrobaby I have know idea what your talking about..I never even implied anything remotly close to "Oh it's in the mix so it doesn't have to sound good." - what I said is if it sounds great then who cares what it was played on - would you like that pearl jam song less if the liner notes said that the track was cut with a rompler synth? thats kinda weak isnt it...to judge your level of appreciation based on the manufacture of the instrument. I don't think it's weak to like the fact that they used the real thing. I liked the track ever since I heard it, as I said (reading) and I liked it more once I found they used a real Hammond, because I'm a Hammond fan. I don't see anything wrong with that. It's not as though I dislike music that doesn't use vintage gear, you're trying to use some weird twisted logic in reference to personal and emotional reactions to certain peices of gear, I don't understand exactly. I also don't understand why someone comes on asking for information about a certain Hammond model and asks if the price is right and you try to swing them away from it in the direction of something that will cost more money. The guy has already said he likes using vintage gear, that he intends to buy vintage gear, and you still relentlessly pursue a strange propogation of your own personal tastes. Even well after the guy made his intentions clear. better how??? trust me ... in a mix a great organ sound is a great organ sound...you would never know the difference these days between a B3 and NI B4... A minute ago you said you weren't saying that just because something is back in the mix it can be weak, and now you're talking about compromising just because it's harder to hear. And please don't throw things like "trust me" at me because an unused L102 and personal preference for softsynths doesn't qualify you as an experienced sound engineer, although if you are then maybe I'll just shut up. and your wrong about the POD...its the same deal and there are tons of respectable big names using the POD to record with...I just read the other day that Trevor Rabin is using one for soundtracking. The POD was used for tracking not as a replacement for the amp, and you also completely left off the other half (Squires) of my example. See, you're twisting my point again. What I said is very clear...I was talking about replacing a real quality instrument and amp with things that are of lesser quality and designed to sound like it...you're either not listening or trying to "win" some sort of online discussion. The only time I've heard of people who can afford better gear using pods as amp substitutes was Weezer in concert and they didn't have the best success with it. people say emulators are not the real deal...of course thier not...thier emulations...but its only really an issue when you can tell a difference in the sound (on tape im speaking)...and these days the technology is so good that you just cant tell anymore... There are still some people with experience that actually can tell, believe it or not. And who said we're even talking about organs back in the mix? Maybe we want to bring it out for a lead. The differences will be pretty strong there. And it isn't just an issue for those listening. As has been said on here more than once by more than one person, some people feel more comfortable and inspired by the real deal. If it yields better results from the artist than it is definately an issue! That's what it comes down to right there. I mean certainly if I had a B3 with a leslie I would be in heaven and record all organ tracks with that only...but I wont spend 8k for it! and I would totally rather use NI B4 for organ tracks than my old L-102 simply because it just sounds A LOT better...hows that ...I have the real deal and choose not to record with it...why...because in the end whats the most important for me is the sound in the mix and not the name on the instrument! You choose not to record with it simply because your personal taste demands a console sound and you have a spinet. Not everyone is hell bent on having the console sound. You're not giving this poor bastard any information you're trying to change his personal tastes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fuzzy4dice Posted August 27, 2004 Author Members Share Posted August 27, 2004 Yes, just help this poor bastard! This is a great thread and it's full of all sorts of conflcting views, which is sorta fun. Anyway, yeah...I really don't want to spend $1000 + on an emulator. As I said, I have a Yamaha P-200 and the organs are pretty decent on that for live use. Anyway, for Mr. Electrobaby...why don't you hook up your L-100 to give you some great B3 vibes? Like get it tricked out and do the Leslie and the whole thing. I bet you would get a completely different sound than your emulator is giving you. In news related to the original topic...I will see the organ next Wednesday. The guy is gonig out of tow this weekend. Around these parts (NY/NJ) there is a L-100 for free...an M-100 just went for $99 on eBay. So...I'm going to have a frank discussion with this guy re: price. I don't want to be a jerk...but I'm seeing that if I hold off with him I can find what I want if I'm patient. PEACE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fuzzy4dice Posted August 27, 2004 Author Members Share Posted August 27, 2004 Also...I have two Squier's and they have both been very good to me...I have recorded with them in the past with great results. LoL. However, the POD issue is different. I would not use that sucker for antyhing. I must draw the line somewhere. Weezer used a POD? That's like disgusting!? ezt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Fear My Potato Posted August 27, 2004 Members Share Posted August 27, 2004 Originally posted by fuzzy4dice Also...I have two Squier's and they have both been very good to me...I have recorded with them in the past with great results. In what sense...I mean you're never going to convince me they sound useable or even passable without at least dropping new pickups in there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Fear My Potato Posted August 27, 2004 Members Share Posted August 27, 2004 Originally posted by fuzzy4dice However, the POD issue is different. I would not use that sucker for antyhing. I must draw the line somewhere. Haha yeah I keep one with me at gigs just in case, but that's about it...it sounds terrible with my guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members electrobaby Posted August 27, 2004 Members Share Posted August 27, 2004 not trying to change tastes..just saying that 350 for a m series is way too steep...if fuzzy looked around he could probably get one cheeaper - maybe already with a leslie but 350 is not a good deal in my opinion...unless he will always be happy with the m sound...and considering that the B3/C3 is the most heard organ on recordings and considering the m series sounds nothing like it that maybe for the cash hes gonna spend he may take a look at other options...there is alot of awesome stuff out there.. I also love and own vintage gear and am a fan of the hammond sound but have learned to look beyond certain instrument makers.... no twisted logic here and I apologize if my remarks were misunderstood:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members electrobaby Posted August 27, 2004 Members Share Posted August 27, 2004 Anyway, for Mr. Electrobaby...why don't you hook up your L-100 to give you some great B3 vibes? Like get it tricked out and do the Leslie and the whole thing. I bet you would get a completely different sound than your emulator is giving you. first thing I would need to do is have it serviced...then I would need to spend WAY more cash then the instrument is even worth to put a leslie on .... and Im not sure what you mean by "tricking out" because regardless of how much cash you spend ...its not gonna sound like a B3 to me...thats why I finally bought B4...but I am not a soft synth kinda guy (thats the only one I own) I prefer hardware...and I am not trying to sell you on it...or any other piece...just research (and it looks like you have) what sound you want, what a fair price is, and how much future retrofits would cost (leslie) I will say though that I get a better vibe playing it than I do playing with B4 - but I like the versatility of B4 more...the sound is more important to me than the vibe of the real instrument...but thats just me ....not trying to talk you out of an organ at all..just dont get burned by someone whose trying to cash in on a historic name... other than that...go for it and enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members suitandtieguy Posted August 28, 2004 Members Share Posted August 28, 2004 Originally posted by electrobaby I will say though that I get a better vibe playing it than I do playing with B4 - but I like the versatility of B4 more...the sound is more important to me than the vibe of the real instrument...but thats just me .... that's funny ... i'm exactly the opposite. the "vibe" (read: interface, feeling) is much more important to me than the sound. give me an Hammond console with a {censored}ty Leslie sim any day over a VK-7 with badass rebuilt 122. the reason being: the vibe has more of an impact on how you play, and how you play is more important that what the sound is like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members HuskerDude Posted August 28, 2004 Members Share Posted August 28, 2004 I have a Hammond M-101 and with a little work it really is a "baby b-3".You can do the foldback mod somewhat easily and add a Leslie, and the preamp is fairly similar.Mine sounds fantastic. And I'm in the process of chopping another one to make it a little lighter for live shows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members snake eyes Posted August 28, 2004 Members Share Posted August 28, 2004 As I said before, Get yourself an Xk3! All the Hammond and leslie you could want in one portable box. No maintenance required. Sure it's expensive but it's worth every penny. You'll get you Hammond fix that you're craving. You'll never get it from a spinet.Futhermore, it's a Hammond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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